Limits on Magic, Discussion on Spells and What They Do Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I guess your group has a different style of play. Mine is big on invis

Our invisibility is not generally of the Magical Kind (unless it is provided as Concealment from a Spirit). That tends to fizzle a lot when it hits BCG, Wards, and such. We rely upon Technological Invisibility, and our own skills. Much more reliable. And it Frees up the mage for other spells.

[K1ll5w1tch]

Relying upon that can get you killed, though. A previous character of ours relied upon that philosophy, and learned a horrible lesson about probabilities. It was not pretty.

I'm trying to get them too realise that and hopefully change a bit of their strategies. They are horribly predictable in how they approach situations. I ran a pregen adventure and one building hat 2 high rating insect spirits in it. I knew he would try to astral search the building (party spliting) because he always does. He almost got killed, if I hadn't rolled bad he would have died in that basement. I'm trying to kill the constant use of invisibility the same way while still trying to not make low security building higher security just to challenge the group.

[sabs]

Just use Camera drones.
OCR 5 to be effected by invisibility.

[Yerameyahu]

Just use cameras, period. They should be embedded in your clothing on all sides.

[K1ll5w1tch]

Just use cameras, period. They should be embedded in your clothing on all sides.

or every npc just has ultra wideband radar upgrade to their eyes.

[sabs]

Not every NPC that's overkill

but certainly the ones who could realistically afford it

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. Except UWB radar isn't in your eyes and it's cheaper to get the sensor version.

[LonePaladin]

Don't forget the low-tech countermeasures. Invisibility doesn't mask your scent, which is why some corps have dogs on patrol runs. Heck, some of 'em even go to the expense of giving 'em cyber. Send a pair of dobermans with wired reflexes at the mage, he'll have to come up with something better than "hide in plain sight".

[Bodak]

Invisibility doesn't mask your scent, which is why some corps have dogs on patrol runs. Heck, some of 'em even go to the expense of giving 'em cyber. Send a pair of dobermans with wired reflexes at the mage, he'll have to come up with something better than "hide in plain sight".

How about a multisensory illusion which masks scent as well as vision and audition? The mage could call it "Fade"...

[Tashiro]

Hmm. Going over Fade once more for clarification: Realistic (+0), Multi-Sense (+0), Hide or Conceal (+2), Touch Range (-2), Sustained (+0), Physical (+1) makes the drain (Half Force + 1)
To compare -- a realistic, multi-sense spell which causes someone to suffer from sensory overload (causing agony and inflicting penalties to the target equal to the Hits of the spell, up to Force), would be Realistic (+0), Multi-Sense (+0), LOS (+0), Sustained (+0), for a total drain of (Half Force) + 0. That's actually pretty sweet.

Back to the thread though -- within the limits of the RAW, what else can be done? Suggestions I've had include things like elemental sheaths, allowing a person's melee weapon to inflict elemental damage on top of the normal effects of the weapon, or to place one around the target, so they can inflict elemental damage with unarmed strikes, or inflict elemental damage to those who strike them with a melee attack. Another one mentioned was sympathetic damage - a Health Spell which causes the target to take the same damage the caster has suffered, soaking it with raw Body and no armour if the caster gets hurt.

[LonePaladin]

Another one mentioned was sympathetic damage - a Health Spell which causes the target to take the same damage the caster has suffered, soaking it with raw Body and no armour if the caster gets hurt.

I would make that a Direct Combat spell, initially resisted with Willpower + Counterspelling. Use the net hits + Force as a limit on how much damage would transfer, and require the spell to be Sustained, so that the sympathetic link breaks if the caster lets it lapse. Changing the spell type would automatically add the "no armor" part.

You could also have two versions: a touch version and an LOS one. (I'd recommend against an area version, though it's not outside the realm of possibility.)

It would basically be identical to a Stunbolt or Manabolt spell, except that doing damage would be dependent on taking damage -- making this more of a threat than an actual attack. Thinking on it this way, the Drain Value should be less than the standard neem-the-bad-guy spell. I'd add a caveat that damage from Drain wouldn't trigger the effect, or the caster would start overcasting like there's no tomorrow.

Call it something like "Share Pain".

[Tashiro]

I would make that a Direct Combat spell, initially resisted with Willpower + Counterspelling. Use the net hits + Force as a limit on how much damage would transfer, and require the spell to be Sustained, so that the sympathetic link breaks if the caster lets it lapse. Changing the spell type would automatically add the "no armor" part.

You could also have two versions: a touch version and an LOS one. (I'd recommend against an area version, though it's not outside the realm of possibility.)

It would basically be identical to a Stunbolt or Manabolt spell, except that doing damage would be dependent on taking damage -- making this more of a threat than an actual attack. Thinking on it this way, the Drain Value should be less than the standard neem-the-bad-guy spell. I'd add a caveat that damage from Drain wouldn't trigger the effect, or the caster would start overcasting like there's no tomorrow.

Call it something like "Share Pain".

The problem is that Combat Spells can only have a duration of Instant -- something which annoys me, because I could easily see a sustained combat spell (Firestorm, Flamethrower, Drown). So, that leaves Anti-Health spells, I think.

And I love the word 'neem' used in this context. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Actually, I might house rule sustained combat spells as +2 Drain. Hmm. Maybe.

[LonePaladin]

The problem is that Combat Spells can only have a duration of Instant -- something which annoys me, because I could easily see a sustained combat spell (Firestorm, Flamethrower, Drown). So, that leaves Anti-Health spells, I think.

And I love the word 'neem' used in this context. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks.

As for the duration issue, I didn't catch that. You'd want it to be sustained, though, or have some other requirements such as:

• Caster must maintain LOS to the target
• The spell lasts until it is discharged (it only works once) or LOS is broken
• Casting another spell ends this effect

If you don't put some sort of limiter on the spell, then it runs the possibility of being exploited, and it needs some sort of duration to actually have an effect.

[Yerameyahu]

The *possibility*? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A sustained spell would either be a single target (hold until he's dead), or area (hold until he's dead, move to new target, repeat forever). How could that be not be 'exploited'?

[LonePaladin]

The *possibility*? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A sustained spell would either be a single target (hold until he's dead), or area (hold until he's dead, move to new target, repeat forever). How could that be not be 'exploited'?

We're referring to the idea of making a spell that copies damage taken by the caster onto the target. Exploiting a sustained spell that does this would run a very good chance of knocking the mage out (thus ending the spell) or killing him (thus, presumably, ending the spell).

If you made it something that wasn't sustained, but didn't put some sort of limiter on the duration (like "works only once"), then someone could just start using this on unaware passersby, then watching the chaos a week later when someone punches him in the face.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would make that a Direct Combat spell, initially resisted with Willpower + Counterspelling. Use the net hits + Force as a limit on how much damage would transfer, and require the spell to be Sustained, so that the sympathetic link breaks if the caster lets it lapse. Changing the spell type would automatically add the "no armor" part.

You could also have two versions: a touch version and an LOS one. (I'd recommend against an area version, though it's not outside the realm of possibility.)

It would basically be identical to a Stunbolt or Manabolt spell, except that doing damage would be dependent on taking damage -- making this more of a threat than an actual attack. Thinking on it this way, the Drain Value should be less than the standard neem-the-bad-guy spell. I'd add a caveat that damage from Drain wouldn't trigger the effect, or the caster would start overcasting like there's no tomorrow.

Call it something like "Share Pain".

Make it a Manipulation Spell instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Sorry LonePaladin. This bit threw me: "I could easily see a sustained combat spell (Firestorm, Flamethrower, Drown)."