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> Gambling, I think I'm missing something
Caadium
post Apr 1 2011, 08:34 PM
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I'm the first to admit that I think my search-fu has failed me this time. I looked at books and thru here and did not find an answer to my question (which I find odd, so I'm assuming I just critically glitched the Search roll):

There is Gambling as a knowledge skill, but what skill covers it as an active skill?

For example, if you have characters getting involved in a gambling match, what do you have them roll to see who does better?
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Hound
post Apr 1 2011, 08:44 PM
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logic + intuition? maybe edge, if you feel like it, to represent luck. I don't think there's any skill that covers it.
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Draco18s
post Apr 1 2011, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (Hound @ Apr 1 2011, 03:44 PM) *
I don't think there's any skill that covers it.


Mainly because games of chance aren't skill based. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Summerstorm
post Apr 1 2011, 08:55 PM
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Depends on the game, i think.

EVERY luck based-game CAN not be rolled of course. (I guess the GM just makes a luck-based roll and that's that)

But for poker, for example where skill does matter you could do it this way:

Make a "luck" roll as the gm and let those provide extra-dice in a cha+con roll, or maybe pit them in a "battle" with intuition+cha against each others skills. Thousand ways to modify, and not one reason to have fixed rules for that (We all know that someone would just max their potential for winning and keep on gambling until rich)
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K1ll5w1tch
post Apr 1 2011, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 1 2011, 01:50 PM) *
Mainly because games of chance aren't skill based. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Most casinos aren't about luck. Ask any professional gambler and they'll tell you theres a lot of skill in knowing the odds for any given bet and how to maximize you wins based on that. Also card games theres even more skill involved in knowing how to read people. I think alot of the given skill would help like con for (bluffing) sense motive to see if other players a bluffing. The knowledge skill can help in determing the odd at any given point to see if that bet is better at this point the game or not.

Or you can do what I've done in the past with gambling. Pull out a deck of cards and play some hands of whatever.
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Adarael
post Apr 1 2011, 09:05 PM
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Here's why:

If you play Blackjack, craps, roulette, slot machines, etc, you're using the Gambling knowledge skill, to figure odds and know how to bet.

If you are playing a human-interactive game, such Poker, you're using Con, with Gambling as a background skill.

The reason Blackjack is NOT in the second category is because figuring odds and knowing how to bet is vastly more important than bluffing.
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Epicedion
post Apr 1 2011, 09:05 PM
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A lot of RPGs try to nail down gambling, but gambling is a lot of things to a lot of people, and each game might be different.

Games like Blackjack, Roulette, Craps, etc, are all strict games of chance, as there are simple rules to follow to maximize your winning percentage. Those could be handled by simple dice rolls (or by playing the game itself if you wanted).

Opposed games like Poker are special -- for some people it's purely mechanical. Play the odds, make the right calls. Some people read the other players. Some bluff. And then there's all the luck involved. It's impossible to boil it all down into one attribute + skill combination.

If you have to make up gambling rules, I'd say that for games of chance you would roll Edge (or Edge + Edge) against some threshold, and gain/lose some percentage of your stake per net hit/loss, over some set time period.

For games that involve skill (poker), I'd say you should probably roll either Intuition, Logic, or Charisma (player's choice) + Edge, to represent whatever play style the character favors. Logic would be for a steady, mechanical player. Intuition would be for a gut-instinct / read the other players player. Charisma would be for a bluffing/misdirecting player.

Then have everyone roll every (time period), and redistribute wealth according to hits.

Extra penalties for glitch/critical glitch (critical glitch loses your whole stake to the house / top roller that round?).

I definitely wouldn't break it down into a per-hand kind of system. That would get old, fast.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 1 2011, 09:05 PM
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Gambling isn't an active skill. You roll the dice, and give the house your money.

Besides, gambling is only a plot point in RPGs. Either it's too minor to matter (let them roll), or it's big enough (GM fiat). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Epicedion
post Apr 1 2011, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
Gambling isn't an active skill. You roll the dice, and give the house your money.

Besides, gambling is only a plot point in RPGs. Either it's too minor to matter (let them roll), or it's big enough (GM fiat). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


It does give me an idea for a run involving an underground casino for the SINless. Best way to case the joint would be to go blow some petty cash at the tables. I'd give it, say, 20 minutes before the team did something to piss someone off.
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Makki
post Apr 1 2011, 10:12 PM
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if you need some dice. You can just let every player at the table roll: Con + Gambling Knowledge skill + Edge. As it's not an important test, it doesn't have to work like the official game mechanics.
If you want to stick to the game mechanics, you can make it more complicated by rolling
Con+Cha, note hits
Gambling Knowledge + Int, note hits
first hits + second hist + edge.

this is for things, where you can actually influence the result. Poker especially. Won't make sense for Roullette so..
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 1 2011, 10:18 PM
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Or Logic, of course. If you're playing all the numbers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Draco18s
post Apr 1 2011, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 1 2011, 04:05 PM) *
The reason Blackjack is NOT in the second category is because figuring odds and knowing how to bet is vastly more important than bluffing.


Bluffing who? In Blackjack you're always playing against the house.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 1 2011, 10:36 PM
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That's what he said: odds in Blackjack are vastly (100%) more important than bluffing.
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Adarael
post Apr 1 2011, 10:45 PM
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Sloppy wording on my part. However, the house bluffing is still a bluff: the hole card isn't shown, but the dealer knows it.

(For two, if you're counting cards and being obvious about it, they'll ask you to leave. That's also bluffing, albeit of a slightly different variety. )
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CanRay
post Apr 1 2011, 10:45 PM
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And if you're playing against Mr. House?

Sorry, couldn't help it.
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Caadium
post Apr 1 2011, 10:48 PM
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So many other game have a simple mechanic or skill that covers gambling that I was surprised I didn't find something similar. I'm just glad to know that it wasn't my failed search-fu for something obvious.

The main reason it came up is that I'm making a character that is a face/throwing adept by the numbers, but a gambler by background. For me, if I put something in the background I just like to make sure that the numbers match the fluff. In other words, I'd hate to make a character that is a gambler, but have no ability that supports that (even if we never actually gamble in game).
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Draco18s
post Apr 1 2011, 10:53 PM
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Knowledge skill.

QUOTE
That's what he said:


Precisely, I was backing up his point.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 1 2011, 11:03 PM
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Exactly, I was supporting your backup.
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Makki
post Apr 1 2011, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 1 2011, 05:45 PM) *
And if you're playing against Mr. House?


House Rules!
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redwulf25
post Apr 2 2011, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Apr 1 2011, 04:34 PM) *
I'm the first to admit that I think my search-fu has failed me this time. I looked at books and thru here and did not find an answer to my question (which I find odd, so I'm assuming I just critically glitched the Search roll):

There is Gambling as a knowledge skill, but what skill covers it as an active skill?

For example, if you have characters getting involved in a gambling match, what do you have them roll to see who does better?


Depends what you're playing I suppose. Blackjack I'd use gambling as an active skill paired with logic for basic play, maybe use logic + mathematics knowledge skill to count cards (if done in a casino there are probably going to be tests for the house to spot this then the big ass troll comes to throw you out and break your arms).

Poker, Logic + mathematics for someone playing a solid game based on the odds, charisma + con to bluff, intuition + perception to read your opponents tells, agility + palming to have a card up your sleeve . . .

Poker could get as complicated as combat.
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redwulf25
post Apr 2 2011, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 1 2011, 05:05 PM) *
A lot of RPGs try to nail down gambling, but gambling is a lot of things to a lot of people, and each game might be different.

Games like Blackjack, Roulette, Craps, etc, are all strict games of chance, as there are simple rules to follow to maximize your winning percentage. Those could be handled by simple dice rolls (or by playing the game itself if you wanted).


I wouldn't call Blackjack strictly a game of chance. Chance is a large factor but there's a lot of strategy about when to hit, stand, split, or double down. And then there's the matter of counting cards . . .
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Draco18s
post Apr 2 2011, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Apr 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
I wouldn't call Blackjack strictly a game of chance. Chance is a large factor but there's a lot of strategy about when to hit, stand, split, or double down. And then there's the matter of counting cards . . .


All that really does is let you know what the statistics are and weigh your risk/reward properly. It does mean you have a greater than 1:1 loss:gain ratio, but it's still odds, probability, statistics, and luck.
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Whipstitch
post Apr 2 2011, 03:01 AM
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Blackjack is a game of rote behavior, for the most part.
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CanRay
post Apr 2 2011, 03:07 AM
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Baccarat! Now there's a gambler's game!

Or Caravan. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Epicedion
post Apr 2 2011, 06:37 AM
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Blackjack is dirt simple. There's an optimal decision depending on what your hand is and what the house is showing. This gives you some just-sub-50% odds, or so. Many casinos will allow you to bring in a blackjack cheat sheet explaining what to do when, and/or let the dealer inform you of your best option. Other players get upset when you deviate from what's expected. The house doesn't care, as they make money in the long run.

On that note, I imagine AR would make it very difficult to prevent card counting. I imagine that a blackjack table in 2070 would use a virtual card system certified by the UCAS/Seattle gambling board to ensure true randomization to prevent card counting.
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