[X] My Assistant

[Rasumichin]

Roadrunner, with Celerity?

If you combine it with Raptor Legs, the Movement spirit power and the obligatory pair of rollerblades, then yes.

[Xahn Borealis]

What other flightless birds could you mutate into? Penguins? Dodo?

[Stahlseele]

What other flightless birds could you mutate into? Penguins? Dodo?

THEM

[Yerameyahu]

No, Machiavelli, I'm definitely not saying there should or could be full-magic SURGE flight. That's exactly my point: SURGE isn't that, therefore the flight isn't magic, therefore it's not possible for a humanoid without huge systemic changes.

[KCKitsune]

Please no. Thanks to Dragonborn in D&D 4e, there's too many furries posing as gamers as it is...

How about you apologize Abstruse. That was a very rude comment.

If someone who is a furry, what makes them less desirable as player? You would rather have less players than allow someone who is a furry to play? You are rude.

========================================

Now on topic. If you want to have winged flight, you MUST have magic. Otherwise it's like everyone else is saying, the human body is not built for it.

Just make it like other metagenic qualities that have requirements. You can have a requirement for this quality be that the SURGEling must have a Magic 1 or greater. If they lose that Magic, then they can't fly or glide. The wings become dead weight.

[Xahn Borealis]

There's no reason the wings couldn't be vestigial, as in a negative met. quality. Maybe you could use them as exotic melee weapons, maybe you can glide a little... Or maybe you're just what the Yakuza have been looking for for their new Bunraku experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Pendaric]

Spell knack levitate+ wings surge.

[Xahn Borealis]

May as well make it a restricted Levitate [Self] spell.

[Kesendeja]

Contrary to popular belief, humanoid winged flight is not actually "impractical". A wingspan of approximately 2.5 times the individual's height (12 - 14 feet for the average human) would be sufficient to provide lift. It would, however, require significant restructuring of their back & shoulder area to handle the comparatively extreme stress, as well as exceptionally strong muscle development to support the wing use. Hollowing of the bones would also be sensible, but not strictly necessary dependent on other changes; hardening the bones (without increasing density - not exactly sure how) would offset their decreased strength for practical purposes.

On the whole, it looks quite a bit similar to a metagenic quality I developed a while back. Unfortunately I never got a chance to play the character I built it for.

Found these little factoids when I was researching the flight structure of birds. Restructuring of the bones with a honeycomb like framework will lighten the bones by 60% with no decrease in strength. Raising the core body temperature has the side effect of strengthening muscle fiber and fast twitch nerve responses. So as a package I'd say the wings compensate for the weight loss of the bones keeping the mass of the body the same. Raising the body temp and metabilism as a side effect takes care of muscle strength, and the massive caloric intake required.

[Yerameyahu]

That's exactly what I meant by 'massive changes'. So, yes, if you can turn your bones into carbon fiber and re-jigger your metabolism… sure, it's easy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

'course it's easy. You can augment your body enough to crush tanks barehanded (more like BEARhanded), so why can't you reject your very nature and be reborn as a sky dwelling being? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Too different.

[Kesendeja]

Wings (Redux)

Cost: 10 or 20 BP

The character possesses a set of wings with a total span equal to three times their height.

Bone density or lacing will render the character to heavy to fly or glide.

At 10 BP they cannot fly only glide. But they are also immune to falling damage providing that they have room to spread their wings. Their speed is equal to their running speed. If they can catch thermal updrafts they can extend the distance they can glide.

For 20 BP their bodies have undergone radical restructuring to allow true flight. Their bones have reshaped into a honeycomb structure that lightens them by 50% which compensates for their weight of the wings. Weight is equal to the character pre-surge. Increased tensile strength in muscles has resulted in an elevated temperature that makes them easier to spot. They receive a -1D to hide against thermographics. Finally their metabolism increases to provide the energy necessary for flight. Add 20% to lifestyle costs for additional dietary requirements.

They fly at a rate of twice their running speed.

Celerity counts to increase flight speed as well, but leg enhancements do not. Speed can be further increased with a Flight check in the same way running does.

[Muspellsheimr]

Winged flight would be quite useful, but comes with some significant downsides.

First, your flight is essentially nullified in constrained environments.
Second, you will very much receive the effects of Distinctive Style.

Your original version is actually much closer to what I designed, & quite a bit superior to the new one. With the given downsides, it's not worth 10BP for 'gliding'. The only possible justification for it costing 20BP is how SURGE qualities work, and that's largely the reason I would price it at 15BP instead of 10.

The flight rate of a fixed 50 meters per turn does not work well for Dwarf vs. Troll speeds; twice the character's base running rate is better.

Bone Density Augmentation specifically includes ligament strengthening, counteracting the increased weight; we can reasonably assume similar applies to Bone Lacing - there is no reason to include that specific exception.

Noting that leg enhancement's don't affect the speed is good, but is entirely unnecessary with a fixed movement rate, and would be better placed as a "(before any adjustments)" to a x2 speed or similar. Celerity does not affect any other creature's natural fly speed (such as shifters), and the description explicitly specifies legs & walking/running rates. There is no reason for it to apply to wing-based flight speeds.



Edit:
And for all the naysayers, it is a metagenetic quality. Many of which have similarly substantial biological changes, all of which require SURGE.
Many of the metagenetic qualities are crap. It would be nice to have a few more that are actually useful.

Wingspan would be better listed as "about 2.5 times the character's height (4 to 5 meters for most humans)."

[Machiavelli]

No, Machiavelli, I'm definitely not saying there should or could be full-magic SURGE flight. That's exactly my point: SURGE isn't that, therefore the flight isn't magic, therefore it's not possible for a humanoid without huge systemic changes.

Sorry, i don´t get it. Possibly too much dope in my youth or anything like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I thought we had basically the same opinion.^^

[Yerameyahu]

Haha. It just sounded like you thought I said there *should* be a no-wings flight SURGE trait. I'm not. I'm saying that SURGE is (99%) about biological effects, but you'd either need magic or massive changes for this.

Muspellsheimr, you're right that winged flight would have huge penalties; I said so at the beginning. That's half the point against it right there. I don't think anyone's arguing that it'd be overpowered. Nor that it'd be bad to have more SURGE stuff. But I think you're wrong that there are many (any?) that are as transformative as non-magical humanoid flight would have to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Incidentally, I'm positive I've seen (crazy) people argue that Celerity/etc. applies to things like Drake flight… 'the RAW doesn't say it doesn't!'. Haha.

[Machiavelli]

For my newest character i bought 2 things that should help him survive better than through any other means possible (equipment, spells, armor, etc.)....it´s "common sense" and Edge on 5. Some people seemingly haven´t invested in one of these points. Guess which one i think about. ^^

[Kesendeja]

Augmented Attributes
10 BP per level

This metagenetic quality gives the character a plus one per level to their attribute that may break the normal limits up to 1.5 times the regular maximum. Each time it is purchased they must designate which attribute it affects. they may, with the GM's approval, purchase it up to five times for each attribute.

[Yerameyahu]

That already exists, and how're you getting 50 BP of qualities anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kesendeja]

That already exists, and how're you getting 50 BP of qualities anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm using the metagenetic qualities to create new metavarients or sapient creature PC's. I assign them a BP total and build from there.

And what's the original ability called I must have missed it?

[Yerameyahu]

Metagenetic Improvement (Attribute), and it costs 20, max once per attrib. It just seems like a duplicate that costs half as much and can be taken 500% as much is… inappropriate?

Anyway, this one's used on a few metavariants; e.g. Fomori.

[Kesendeja]

Metagenetic Improvement (Attribute) Raises the minimum and maximum of the attribute it doesn't give you the point in the attribute.

But your right the cost is to low. Thinking of 10 up to the maximum and 20 if you break the normal max.

[Yerameyahu]

Oh. I misread yours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) … Honestly, that's even worse. Each point of an attribute only costs 10BP in the first place (25 for the max point), and Exceptional Attribute is 20BP. So, you're combining 10 or 25 BP plus 20 BP (30-45) into… 10. Or 20, still no good.

I feel like 'increase the minimum' *is* a +1. Does anyone out there not read it that way? If it didn't raise the attribute, it would have the 'this doesn't actually raise the attribute' disclaimer that Exceptional Attrib and Genetic Optimization both have.

[Kesendeja]

Oh. I misread yours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) … Honestly, that's even worse. Each point of an attribute only costs 10BP in the first place (25 for the max point), and Exceptional Attribute is 20BP. So, you're combining 10 or 25 BP plus 20 BP (30-45) into… 10. Or 20, still no good.

Reedited for clarity. they can break the normal maximum up to 1.5 times. So a human could have up to a 9 in something, just like the normal rules for augmented attributes.

[Yerameyahu]

I dig: it's like Muscle Toner without that pesky surgery or Essence loss. Does it count as Augmented? Does it alter the Augmented Max? Does it cost as much as getting it with BP (or Karma, later)? It just seems like something that shouldn't exist, given the game mechanics. If it's just a 'race-building' rule, not intended for actual characters, then it's more understandable.

If it's not, though… the powergamers *already* rush to get Exceptional, Metagenic, and Genetic Improvement, and all of those are *much* worse deals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)