Non shiva-arms trollBow, I felt bad about the Uber Troll Bow topic, so here's a better one& Options

[longbowrocks]

I felt bad about the Uber Troll Bow topic because you guys are right. On first inspection of the rules, it appears that ANY weapon can be fired twice in one simple action if dual wielded: "If a character has one weapon in each hand, he may fire once with each weapon by expending one Simple Action." (core book, simple action, fire weapon). But that sentence references "attacker using second firearm" which dictates that this rule may only be used for pistol and SMG class weapons.

In light of this, I felt it would be prudent to bring a more legal character to the table. May I present: mr. McKillAnythingInOneShot.

A lot of the following will look familiar, but bear with me. To begin with, just a simple troll for my metatype.

before mods:
10 STR (maxed)
6 AGI (Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization)
6 EDGE
spend the rest somewhere else.

max archery at 6 and specialize in bows for +2

Bioware to get:
+1 STR => muscle augmentation
+2 AGI => muscle toner
+1 AGI, STR => suprathyroid gland
+1 archery => reflex recorder
+2 initiative passes => synaptic booster

qualities:
Aptitude (+1 Archery nat. max.)
Exceptional Attribute (+1 AGI nat. max.)
Hawk Eye (range modifiers reduced by one step)

Final stats:
12 STR
9 AGI
7+1=8 archery (aptitude quality and reflex recorder)

other equipment:
Rating 12 bow with smartgun system
piles of explosive arrows
MRSI software


Here's the breakdown on how this guy is used in abstract:
1. Use MRSI to analyze the high and low trajectories for your bow.
2. Set those trajectories to aim for called shots.
3. ???
4. Profit.

and rules wise:
IP1: ready weapon, take aim
IP2: call shot for +4 DV, fire weapon, ready weapon
IP3: take aim, call shot for +4 DV, fire weapon, roll attack

Hopefully you hit whatever you were aiming for with (14+1+4)*2 = 38 DV + hits. That is, if you can make your attack roll of (AGI 9 + Archery 8 + specialization 2 + smartgun 2 - called shot 4) 17 (+6 for 23 if you use edge). If you average 1 hit per 3 dice, then your average modified attack is either 44 or 45.
According to the flight time rules in WAR, the target can avoid the first arrow if he moves (I'd love to have some debate on this), but that can be counteracted by Hawk Eye with Adept, and replacing the synaptic boosters with improved reflexes level 3 (the other bioware costs 1.4 essence). Simply use your first initiative pass normally, then use the last 3 as above. Its doubtful your enemy will act in the last 2 IPs.

So, if you manage to make your attack, and your GM buys hits for his armored vehicles, You could probably destroy the strongest land vehicle I've ever seen in one Combat turn. That is to say this:
Aztechnology Cuanmitztli which has 36 body 30 armor, Would last 3 seconds against a guy with a bow.

All in all, even a pornomancer can't take these rods. Can I get a high five?

[Stahlseele]

The Pornomancer will talk these rods into letting him put his rod into one of them.

[longbowrocks]

The Pornomancer will talk these rods into letting him put his rod into one of them.

A. Painful to get a rod put in your rod.
B. Silly Stahl, you can't get the hollow point mod for arrows!

[Stahlseele]

No, but you can get something similar to it.
At least, damage-wise. And you can get Explosive Arrow Tips too, i think.
Think Rambo, from Rambo 2 i think, here. Even more Damage.
Basically, you CAN be your very own Artillery Unit ^^

[longbowrocks]

No, but you can get something similar to it.
At least, damage-wise. And you can get Explosive Arrow Tips too, i think.
Think Rambo, from Rambo 2 i think, here. Even more Damage.
Basically, you CAN be your very own Artillery Unit ^^

I included Explosive arrows tips in the calculation. You can add hollow point to that?

[Stahlseele]

Ah, did overread that.
And no, you can't add hollow point to that . .
Which is a pity, really. Hollow Point Explosives.
Basically HEAPDS Arrows ^^

[longbowrocks]

oh yeah. I've often regretted that ammo modifications in this game are represented as ammo types rather than modifications to basic ammo.

[Method]

I will never understand the facination some people have with troll bowmen.

Yes. You can build a character that breaks the system. There are many ways to do it.

Search function please.

[Stahlseele]

Because it's awesome. Dot Com!

[longbowrocks]

Agreed with Stahl. It's fun!

Anyway, as with the pornomacer, this is more of a number exercise than anything else. I would probably use a gun if I wanted to optimize my character for taking out mobs, and only use this guy if... Well, actually, he'd do more damage if I didn't use MRSI (even counting the fact that the defender would get more chances to roll). However, it's still fun to imagine releasing a pair of arrows that simultaneously hit a tank and drive through it in the same style as an energy blast in DBZ.

[Method]

I understand. I'm just pointing out that these builds have been done to death in multiple other threads.

But, hey whatever floats your boat.

[K1ll5w1tch]

I understand. I'm just pointing out that these builds have been done to death in multiple other threads.

But, hey whatever floats your boat.

Yeah because nothing more fun than building a metagamed, overpowerd, game killing character thats more about stats, numbers and loopholing rules, then personality and authenticity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It's crap like that, that casues so many house rules to be put in place. I mean really a guy with a bow can take out and armored vehicle with a normal arrow paaleeese. Sorry no arrow is going to damage a vehicle ever. I don't care what year it is in the future, armor will keep up with the technology and relegate arrows to what they've always been, nice quite ways to kill PEOPLE. Sorry but your arrow despite being expertly shot just bounces off harmlessly. "Ohh but it was explosive tip MR.GM". Ohh in that case that half an ounce of explosive leaves nice scorch mark on the paint.

Sorry net damage shouldn't determine hardened armor penetration, base damage of the weapon should.

[Glyph]

I don't get how you're doubling the damage. Does the MRSI software do that? Really? If it does, then War! is even more incredibly unbalanced than I've been hearing.

[Ramorta]

I don't get how you're doubling the damage. Does the MRSI software do that? Really? If it does, then War! is even more incredibly unbalanced than I've been hearing.

You basicly make two seperate attacks, and then if they both hit, the DV gets added together for a "single" impact. (Read: Damage resistance test) Which is why the damage is doubling. MSRI is artillery software designed to be used with mortars (and other ordinance). Using it with a bow is.... *cough*

[longbowrocks]

Yeah because nothing more fun than building a metagamed, overpowerd, game killing character thats more about stats, numbers and loopholing rules, then personality and authenticity.

AW YEAH! You recognized immediately that loopholing is my favorite part. That can make some really juicy characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Sorry no arrow is going to damage a vehicle ever.

1. That's why this is so awesome!
2. You forget that MY arrows weigh several kilograms any fly at supersonic speeds.
3. Oh, and I'm thinking of adding some sort of laser tagging system to the arrows so I can get bonuses for firing the 18 DV half-10 AP Aztechnology Itzcóatl Gauss Cannon mounted on my back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
(jk on that last one)

Sorry net damage shouldn't determine hardened armor penetration, base damage of the weapon should.

Bad idea. The bow has higher base damage than any other PC carryable weapon in the game. They shouldn't even have bows in the future, or they should have +(a lot) AP like shotguns.

Using it with a bow is.... *cough*

"but it can also be used with grenade launchers and even bows." (WAR, description of MRSI)
Most arrows fly in a pronounced arc and suffer flight time rules, so even in real life it would make sense. Other than that, great recollection of the important bits.

[Epicedion]

Physics to the rescue:

When you launched the first (high trajectory) arrow into the air, at a leisurely 100 m/s (which is about the launch velocity for a 100lb English longbow), it would take 15-20 seconds to reach its target. Given some ridiculous launch velocity from a STR 12 bow, say, 250 m/s, you're looking at more like 50 seconds to reach the target, fired almost vertically.

Edit: To be clear, that means you could fire two rounds to strike simultaneously, you'd just have to wait 16 combat turns to fire the second shot.

[longbowrocks]

Physics to the rescue:

When you launched the first (high trajectory) arrow into the air, at a leisurely 100 m/s (which is about the launch velocity for a 100lb English longbow), it would take 15-20 seconds to reach its target. Given some ridiculous launch velocity from a STR 12 bow, say, 250 m/s, you're looking at more like 50 seconds to reach the target, fired almost vertically.

Edit: To be clear, that means you could fire two rounds to strike simultaneously, you'd just have to wait 16 combat turns to fire the second shot.

Oh god, we're getting deep into RL territory now. In the case of MRSI, I only have to wait a combat turn because I can't fire again until next IP (the world warps to suit me that way) otherwise, arrows are instant transmission like bullets in this game.

[Draco18s]

When you launched the first (high trajectory) arrow into the air, at a leisurely 100 m/s (which is about the launch velocity for a 100lb English longbow), it would take 15-20 seconds to reach its target. Given some ridiculous launch velocity from a STR 12 bow, say, 250 m/s, you're looking at more like 50 seconds to reach the target, fired almost vertically.

I have to ask:

1) How far away is the target?
2) Why does it take the faster arrow a longer time to reach the same target if the first (slower) arrow is on the "high" trajectory?

[Epicedion]

I have to ask:

1) How far away is the target?
2) Why does it take the faster arrow a longer time to reach the same target if the first (slower) arrow is on the "high" trajectory?

1) Assuming within maximum range of the bow. At STR 12 this is 720m.

2) The faster an arrow is the farther up it has to travel before it reaches its peak, turns around, and starts to come back down. An arrow fired at 250m/s straight up is going to travel about 2 miles up before it comes back down. It's about 25 seconds to reach its peak, and 25 seconds more to reach the ground.

A 100m/s arrow (strong unaugmented human) only travels about 500m straight up, or less than a third of a mile. It completes the trip up in about 10 seconds, and the trip back down in another 10.

Arrows fired at these velocities would have to be launched at ridiculously steep angles (87-88 degrees) to land within the weapon's maximum targeting range, meaning that the travel times are mostly accurate (since they're based on a 90 degree launch). The only way to change this would be to dramatically reduce the launch velocity, which in turn would dramatically reduce the power of the weapon.

Since you're fixing velocity (for power) and range to target isn't changing, the only variable then is angle. There are two angles at which you can fire. One will be almost vertical (16+ combat turns to hit), and the other will be almost flat (<1 combat turn to hit).

I'm sure there's a range at which the times to target are within a combat turn of each other (allowing you to fire twice in a row), but it's well outside the SR4 maximum bow range.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It should go without Saying, but Maximum Bow Strength is 8, not 12.

[longbowrocks]

It should go without Saying, but Maximum Bow Strength is 8, not 12.

This comes up a lot, but it's meatbook vs. pdf. The pdf says rating 12.

[Draco18s]

Stuff

There. You went all mathy and left out the important details.

[longbowrocks]

I really don't understand why everybody gets so up in arms about bows. To begin with, firearm users have an overwhelming advantage in terms of mods, use options, number of shots per round, and having spare points after they power up their guns. As for bows, they ARE balanced: it's just that the 3rd edition guys are still grinding away at power gaming a weapon that has lost its power.
I said about 45 modified DV before resistance test, right?

Let's compare this to a pistol so weak that I could cry about it:
6 DV, total dice pool 12. average 4 hits.
The guy using this pistol is a moron: he isn't dual wielding; has a dice pool that could fill a thimble; has no ammo mods for DV or AP; and is using a weak gun to begin with.
This pistol can attack twice per IP. The guy has 3 IPs per round. Assuming your hits cancel out the defender's reflex roll to dodge, and his resistance test afterwards, you're doing about 6 DV per shot. 6 DV per shot * 2 shots per IP * 3 IPs per combat turn = 36 damage per combat turn.

[Yerameyahu]

Not the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even if 45 wasn't significantly more than 36 (because they're both just examples), one big hit is better than 6 small hits. It matters against armored metahumans, but it matters *a ton* against vehicles and spirits.

People don't like the idea of a bow tearing open a tank or a spirit, when most firearms will do literally nothing against the same enemy. You made this point yourself in the first post, man.

[Glyph]

This comes up a lot, but it's meatbook vs. pdf. The pdf says rating 12.

No, the unupdated version of the pdf says rating 12. This isn't some discrepancy in sources - it's deliberately picking a pre-eratta version of something.