Non shiva-arms trollBow, I felt bad about the Uber Troll Bow topic, so here's a better one& Options

[Yerameyahu]

longbowrocks, as I said, those stats were ridiculous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most firearms (which certainly doesn't mean 'Longarms and up') cannot reasonably expect to hurt armor 20, even with the very expensive and extra-illegal armor piercing bullets. And assault cannons are not part of the question… they're *assault cannons*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Glyph]

I think the main thing making this hypothetical archer so ludicrous is the MRSI software. Without it, and with the bow capped at 8, the damage is still high, but is not a tank-killing monstrosity that breaks the scale and logic of the game world.

I guess MRSI software is the combat equivalent of empathy software. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[longbowrocks]

longbowrocks, as I said, those stats were ridiculous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most firearms (which certainly doesn't mean 'Longarms and up') cannot reasonably expect to hurt armor 20, even with the very expensive and extra-illegal armor piercing bullets. And assault cannons are not part of the question… they're *assault cannons*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ok, I've been avoiding it, but I know what you're saying. Still, you gotta admit that there are many more broken builds out there, especially any firearms build with the stats I suggested, since any fight the GM could devise (that allowed everyone else a turn in combat) would hinge on the success of this firearms expert.

[Ramorta]

Ok, I've been avoiding it, but I know what you're saying. Still, you gotta admit that there are many more broken builds out there, especially any firearms build with the stats I suggested, since any fight the GM could devise (that allowed everyone else a turn in combat) would hinge on the success of this firearms expert.

Which is why we have lovely illusion spells. Your firearms expert can blast illusions all day, and not really matter if he succeeds or fails. While the rest of the party can maintain their internal power level without issues.

[longbowrocks]

I think the main thing making this hypothetical archer so ludicrous is the MRSI software. Without it, and with the bow capped at 8, the damage is still high, but is not a tank-killing monstrosity that breaks the scale and logic of the game world.

who would pick up a bow in that case?
Under those conditions:

• All SA or better weapons have faster fire rate.
• Most SS weapons can be upgraded to fire faster than the bow.
• There is a pistol in the core book that almost surpasses the best starting bow (one less DV, one more AP).
• Bows cannot use any of the standard ammo types, and have only 7 of their own.
• Bows cannot use any burst fire to increase damage or hit more enemies.
• People say bows are silent, but I haven't seen any negative modifiers for detecting shot source by sound on bows. firearms can get silencers.
• You need to dump points into two attributes to use a bow.
• Bows are very difficult to conceal.
• Bow ratings make it impossible to use "restricted gear" to get a good one from character creation.
• Expansions to Shadowrun generally curry to firearms. Don't expect anything new for your bow.
• Adepts can circumvent normal combat and simply snatch your arrow out of the air as a free action. Failing that, they still have their normal rolls.

In short, if the bows lose both their high max rating and MRSI, then they're inflexible (more so than they already are), a huge BP drain, and have AP capabilities similar to sport rifles (below snipers and assault cannons).

I guess MRSI software is the combat equivalent of empathy software. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Lol.

[Stahlseele]

*nods*
bows are, and allways have been, balanced like this . .
i still don't see why people are so up in arms(heh) about this.

[longbowrocks]

Which is why we have lovely illusion spells. Your firearms expert can blast illusions all day, and not really matter if he succeeds or fails. While the rest of the party can maintain their internal power level without issues.

ok, he has a chance through number of attacks though, and even has points left over to put in intuition and skills that let him notice the illusions. BowMan is tapped out from squeezing every last one of <insert half total BP> into STR and AGI, plus the other attributes he needs to not die (body and reaction).

[Ramorta]

ok, he has a chance through number of attacks though, and even has points left over to put in intuition and skills that let him notice the illusions. BowMan is tapped out from squeezing every last one of <insert half total BP> into STR and AGI, plus the other attributes he needs to not die (body and reaction).

Actually, BowMan just switchs to a crossbow and becomes an elf. Does he lose DV? Sure, but he gains a mountain of BP to actually make him a playable character. (As well as being able to use the MSRI should he be so inclined)

[Stahlseele]

But then he's just another elf and not a one troll ballista . .

[Ramorta]

But then he's just another elf and not a one troll ballista . .

Such is the price of playing cool. I agree 100% that the troll ballista is more awesome. Longbowrocks however is just looking for the optimal damage code, from what it seems like. At which point he saves points by switching to an elf and using a crossbow which isn't linked to strength. Bows are suboptimal now, after the SR4A changes. Sucks for those of us who actually enjoyed being ballistas. We still have thrown weapons though....

[Stahlseele]

Thrown weapons are only STR/2+x though, right?
Of course, the rules for overlapping grenade blasts would be, in combination with 6 arms, pretty evil . .

[longbowrocks]

Actually, BowMan just switchs to a crossbow and becomes an elf. Does he lose DV? Sure, but he gains a mountain of BP to actually make him a playable character. (As well as being able to use the MSRI should he be so inclined)

There are too many points floating around. I forgot which one was my original.
Oh well, I think we were talking about super OKOBowMan, not super NerfedBowMan, so I'll go with that.
if he uses a crossbow, he might as well switch to a grenade launcher. It's better all around. I have no idea what rules crossbows use for firing anyway. Wouldn't it be bow rules?

[longbowrocks]

Of course, the rules for overlapping grenade blasts would be, in combination with 6 arms, pretty evil . .

Oh you naughty naughty boy. does that work like MRSI? If so, that's a hilarious 6*8 = 48 base DV.
Six armed high AGI grenadier is truly the way this game is meant to be played. Lol.

[Ramorta]

There are too many points floating around. I forgot which one was my original.
Oh well, I think we were talking about super OKOBowMan, not super NerfedBowMan, so I'll go with that.
if he uses a crossbow, he might as well switch to a grenade launcher. It's better all around. I have no idea what rules crossbows use for firing anyway. Wouldn't it be bow rules?

The only difference between a bow and a crossbow is that the crossbow autoreloads (It has a clip of 5, iirc) which would make it easier for you to use with MSRI. Oh, and the fixed damage code which isn't linked to strength. Still uses the same skill, and action to fire.

[Stahlseele]

Oh you naughty naughty boy. does that work like MRSI? If so, that's a hilarious 6*8 = 48 base DV.
Six armed high AGI grenadier is truly the way this game is meant to be played. Lol.

*snickers*
i can powergame with the best of them ^^
just because Trolls, Bows and STR have been nerfed like they have, does not mean one can not make the most of them sometimes ^^

[Ramorta]

*snickers*
i can powergame with the best of them ^^
just because Trolls, Bows and STR have been nerfed like they have, does not mean one can not make the most of them sometimes ^^

What? Your not going to wield 6 full-auto grenade launchers and get 60 grenades per IP?

[Stahlseele]

No, because for that i'd have to be an elf (NEVAR!) again and not have anything from a high STR aside from some points of Recoil Compensation.

[Ramorta]

Are you proposing a limp wristed elf could even LIFT 6 grenade launchers off the ground? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[longbowrocks]

What? Your not going to wield 6 full-auto grenade launchers and get 60 grenades per IP?

*choke*
I coughed up a lung laughing at that one. Even though I don't know whether the rules will support it.

[Ramorta]

*choke*
I coughed up a lung laughing at that one. Even though I don't know whether the rules will support it.

Its legal. MRSI supports grenade launchers. If you can get a character with enough recoil compensation to actually fire them all (note that for heavy weapons any uncompensated recoil is doubled) you'd be doing 8x60 = 480 DV in a single IP, 1920 DV over the course of all 4 IP's. The primary problem is that you'll run out of ammo too quickly to be able to maintain that damage for long. Not that you need too. You could level a building with damage like that. ((Keep in mind, that the printed stats for a THOR shot is only 30P.))

[Stahlseele]

Yah . . why they release stuff like that even though they KNOW us people here at dumpshock still astounds me . .

[Ramorta]

Yah . . why they release stuff like that even though they KNOW us people here at dumpshock still astounds me . .

Its military grade artillery software. It does exactly what its real life counterpart does. I honestly have no issues with it being in the game, but it should have a more appropriate availability rating (Really? Only 14R, WTF?) and 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is chump change.

[Stahlseele]

14R makes it CharGenLegal right?
At least with Restricted Gear Quality . .
Hell, do the trick where you have a Warez-Network as a 6/6 Group-Contact and one hell of a search programm, and you can get it for much less . .

[longbowrocks]

Its legal. MRSI supports grenade launchers. If you can get a character with enough recoil compensation to actually fire them all (note that for heavy weapons any uncompensated recoil is doubled) you'd be doing 8x60 = 480 DV in a single IP, 1920 DV over the course of all 4 IP's. The primary problem is that you'll run out of ammo too quickly to be able to maintain that damage for long. Not that you need too. You could level a building with damage like that. ((Keep in mind, that the printed stats for a THOR shot is only 30P.))

And a suitcase nuke is 130 DV.
I wasn't talking about MRSI, but rather using one grenade launcher per hand. I guess you can use assault cannons in each hand, heavy weapons in general should be applicable.
Then again, MRSI only supports two rounds for adding. Are you using a different section of the rules?

[Stahlseele]

We have one handed grenade-launchers that can be modded for full auto i think . .