Chummer Character Generator Options

[LonePaladin]

This is actually correct as far as I understand it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (SR4A 195, lower left corner under "Adept Powers"). If you only have 1 Power Point, then you only have a MAG score of 1. The maximum level you can have in any power is equal to your MAG score. In the case you illustrated, a MAG score of 1 means you can only have Critical Strike Rating 1. When you try to put it to Rating 2, it does not let you because that would exceed your MAG score. If you increase your MAG score to 2, you will then be allowed to put Critical Strike to Rating 2.

You can have a Magic attribute higher than your total Power Points, if you're a mystic adept.

[Nebular]

Right. At the moment though there is no way to split MAG between Adept and Magician, so having a maximum of 1 Power Point is the same as having MAG 1 in the app right now. So what your description tells me is that your MAG score was set to 1 at the time, so the Power wouldn't let you put your Rating any higher which is technically correct. Of course I'm just assuming your MAG score was 1 based on what you said. Was it different when you tried this? When you do split your MAG between Adept and Magician, do you use the character's MAG score or the MAG invested in Adept for determining max Rating?

[Wizard_Thoarin]

I guess I need to do some double checking, but it seems odd to me that the Fomori metavariant pays for both troll and fomori races. Unless I haven't done enough reading in Runners Companion the cost for a metavariant in build points replaces but does not add on to the cost of the base race. Also, it seems the "Metagenetic Improvement (Body)" listed in the Formori qualities is not boosting the min/max body attribute by the 1 point its supposed to. Maybe the metavariants should just be listed under the race selection list box maybe indented or bulleted under the base race.

I haven't checked the other metavariants yet, although I need to look at the Minotaur also since I have both a Minotaur and Fomori in my gaming group.

[Nebular]

- Augmented attributes from cyberlimbs is calculated weirdly, it seems to take into account only attribute enhancements, but not the cyberlimb customization. Additionaly, the augmented attribute is "natural" + "highest enhancement", where it should be the averaged value of the limbs.

For some reason the combination of the descriptions and the examples in the book is making my brain hurt. I obviously don't have it right in the app and am fighting to get my head around this. Let me see if I've got this straight...

The Street Samurai example in SR4A just lists the Enhancements which I think is one of the pieces that's confusing me because it looks as though Enhanced X directly improves that Attribute by the selected amount (but there are a number of problems with the example characters in that book so why should this one be any different).

I've got a Human with STR 4. Drop in a Full Cyberarm. Give it Customized Strength 6 (natural maximum). I would now have STR 4 (6), correct? In order for it to become 4 (7), I would need to add Enhanced Strength 1?

Same Human. Full Cyberarm again. This time I only add Enhanced Strength 1. Would my STR be 4 (5), even though limbs are supposedly STR 3 without enhancements? The example character certainly make it look that way. As I had mentioned, they make it look as though Enhanced Strength improves your character's STR, regardless of the STR the limb is at.

[redwulf25]

Another thing that appears to be hiding are the OS's for Comlinks. I don't see them under Comlink or communication, or electronic accessory or Misc. Electronics. For that matter I don't see hacking programs. Are hackers not supported yet or do I just not know where to look?

Also I don't know what the system wants when it asks me for a "value" when I buy a fake SIN.

[Nebular]

I guess I need to do some double checking, but it seems odd to me that the Fomori metavariant pays for both troll and fomori races. Unless I haven't done enough reading in Runners Companion the cost for a metavariant in build points replaces but does not add on to the cost of the base race. Also, it seems the "Metagenetic Improvement (Body)" listed in the Formori qualities is not boosting the min/max body attribute by the 1 point its supposed to. Maybe the metavariants should just be listed under the race selection list box maybe indented or bulleted under the base race.

I haven't checked the other metavariants yet, although I need to look at the Minotaur also since I have both a Minotaur and Fomori in my gaming group.

Yikes. Right you are. The Metavariant BP is instead of the Metatype BP, not in addition to. Looks like a change I made to get support in for Sapients caused the Metavariants to stop selecting their Qualities when you take them. These will be fixed in the next update.

[whatevs]

Another thing that appears to be hiding are the OS's for Comlinks. I don't see them under Comlink or communication, or electronic accessory or Misc. Electronics. For that matter I don't see hacking programs. Are hackers not supported yet or do I just not know where to look?

Also I don't know what the system wants when it asks me for a "value" when I buy a fake SIN.

Commlink os needs to be added as a mod to a commlink. So pick a commlink, then right click the commlink in your gear list, choose 'add modification' and you should be good to go.

Fake sin's have a rating as per raw. The higher the rating, the more systems they can fool. Same with fake licences.

[Argent]

This is actually correct as far as I understand it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (SR4A 195, lower left corner under "Adept Powers"). If you only have 1 Power Point, then you only have a MAG score of 1. The maximum level you can have in any power is equal to your MAG score. In the case you illustrated, a MAG score of 1 means you can only have Critical Strike Rating 1. When you try to put it to Rating 2, it does not let you because that would exceed your MAG score. If you increase your MAG score to 2, you will then be allowed to put Critical Strike to Rating 2.

Sorry about that Nebular. You are right! The program was not letting my rating go beyond one since my magic was only rating 1. I added another power at rating 1 which allowed me to use the rest of my remaining power point.

[Argent]

For some reason the combination of the descriptions and the examples in the book is making my brain hurt. I obviously don't have it right in the app and am fighting to get my head around this. Let me see if I've got this straight...

The Street Samurai example in SR4A just lists the Enhancements which I think is one of the pieces that's confusing me because it looks as though Enhanced X directly improves that Attribute by the selected amount (but there are a number of problems with the example characters in that book so why should this one be any different).

I've got a Human with STR 4. Drop in a Full Cyberarm. Give it Customized Strength 6 (natural maximum). I would now have STR 4 (6), correct? In order for it to become 4 (7), I would need to add Enhanced Strength 1?

Same Human. Full Cyberarm again. This time I only add Enhanced Strength 1. Would my STR be 4 (5), even though limbs are supposedly STR 3 without enhancements? The example character certainly make it look that way. As I had mentioned, they make it look as though Enhanced Strength improves your character's STR, regardless of the STR the limb is at.

OK, I will do my best to explain it. Lets say your character has a Body 2, Strength 3, Agility 3. He then buys a standard right cyber arm with a body 4, strength 5, agility 4 ( he used enhancements to boost the limb above 3 for each attribute) then he buys a customized left leg with a body 6, strength 6, agility 6 ( no enhancements required up to racial max). Here is how you figure it all out:

Formula: (Natural Attribute + Cyberlimb attribute 1 + cyberlimb attribute 2...ect) / total amount of attributes used in formula then rounded down= Augmented Attribute

Body: 2+4+6=12 then 12/3 round down = 4
Strength: 3+5+6=14 then 14/3 round down = 4
Agility: 3+4+6=13 then 13/3 round down = 4

So the correct display for attributes would be:

Body: 2(4)
Strength: 3(4)
Agility: 3(4)

This assumes that for most general actions/activities your body must balance itself out. When you take a specific action like punch with cyberarm or kick with cyber leg or jump with cyber legs then you would use that cyberlimbs attribute flat out. Enhancements only enhance the cyberlimb you purchased it for. Hope this helps.

[Nebular]

Commlink os needs to be added as a mod to a commlink. So pick a commlink, then right click the commlink in your gear list, choose 'add modification' and you should be good to go.

Already there. Commlink Operating System is one of the categories when you add Accessories to a Commlink which lets you add the OS. From there you can also add Commlink Upgrades (Response and Signal) and Commlink Operating System Upgrade (Firewall and System).

[Nebular]

OK, I will do my best to explain it. Lets say your character has a Body 2, Strength 3, Agility 3. He then buys a standard right cyber arm with a body 4, strength 5, agility 4 ( he used enhancements to boost the limb above 3 for each attribute) then he buys a customized left leg with a body 6, strength 6, agility 6 ( no enhancements required up to racial max). Here is how you figure it all out:

Formula: (Natural Attribute + Cyberlimb attribute 1 + cyberlimb attribute 2...ect) / total amount of attributes used in formula then rounded down= Augmented Attribute

Body: 2+4+6=12 then 12/3 round down = 4
Strength: 3+5+6=14 then 14/3 round down = 4
Agility: 3+4+6=13 then 13/3 round down = 4

So the correct display for attributes would be:

Body: 2(4)
Strength: 3(4)
Agility: 3(4)

This assumes that for most general actions/activities your body must balance itself out. When you take a specific action like punch with cyberarm or kick with cyber leg or jump with cyber legs then you would use that cyberlimbs attribute flat out. Enhancements only enhance the cyberlimb you purchased it for. Hope this helps.

So if I wanted Strength on that leg, I would need to add Enhanced Strength 1 because it has already hit the metatype maximum for STR, correct? In that case the STR formula would change to 3+5+7=15, 15/3 = 5 for STR 3(5)? If that's the case, then I think I've got it! Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bigity]

Now my brain hurts.

[Argent]

So if I wanted Strength on that leg, I would need to add Enhanced Strength 1 because it has already hit the metatype maximum for STR, correct? In that case the STR formula would change to 3+5+7=15, 15/3 = 5 for STR 3(5)? If that's the case, then I think I've got it! Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You got it sir, on both counts!

[redwulf25]

Commlink os needs to be added as a mod to a commlink. So pick a commlink, then right click the commlink in your gear list, choose 'add modification' and you should be good to go.

Thanks.

Fake sin's have a rating as per raw. The higher the rating, the more systems they can fool. Same with fake licences.

I realize that, but you select the rating from a drop down menu when you buy it. So that's just for pricing and you still have to put the rating in?

[redwulf25]

Already there. Commlink Operating System is one of the categories when you add Accessories to a Commlink which lets you add the OS. From there you can also add Commlink Upgrades (Response and Signal) and Commlink Operating System Upgrade (Firewall and System).

Ah-hah! found my issue I need to use the add as plug in command.

[Yerameyahu]

Are we sure you don't always use 5 limbs for the overall average calculation? So, 3 of the natural, and cyber-1 and cyber-2, all over 5? It doesn't really make sense the other way, and things like 'legs-only' tests use the weakest link, IIRC.

[whatevs]

Quick Technical Issue: Looks like specializations of knowledge skills are taking away skill points, but not adding any dice. Unless I've got it wrong.

[whatevs]

One more note about character mug shot: might want to mention that the dimensions for the shot need to be roughly 210px wide x 310px high.

[whatevs]

Suggestion: on the character sheet, might want to consider shading every second line light greay in the following areas for readability:

Actve Skills
Knowledge Skills
Contacts
Spells
Gear

[Argent]

Wow! I have just done a ton of reading and research on the forums and the rule books and now my brain hurts. Well pg 343 of SR4A says:

1. for specific limb use limb attributes
2. in any other case use the average value of all limbs
3. for a task that requires careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.

For a basic character sheet it would make sense to me that you would display the average augmented attribute to cover most cases (#2)

So i think my previous understanding was a little wrong so I would like to offer a revision to the formula. The general consensus in the forums is that the skull is usually left out of attribute avarages and it makes sense to me so I will do the same. Limbs are considered both arms, both legs, and torso...total 5 limbs.

Augmented attribute= Cyber limbs + meat limbs / 5(total limbs)

6(cyber torso)+3(left cyber arm)+5 (left cyber leg)+3(meat right arm)+3(meat right leg)= 20/5 = 4
Displayed as Body: 3(4)

Full conversion razor boys is where I have some beefs. Some people like the idea of once going full cyber then you don't have to average in the natural ratings, just the cyber ones. I think that leads to alot of characters that start with Natural body,agility, and strength ratings of one because who cares, it won't count anyways. I think we all see how this can be abused. The meat body is the foundation on which the cyber body is built so while it will only affect it minimally, it should still affect the attribute ratings.

Full cyberlimb replacemnt formula.
Augmented attribute= natural rating + cyber limbs / 6 (5 total limbs +1 for the base attribute rating)

6(cyber torso)+6(left cyber arm)+6(left cyber leg)+6(cyber right arm)+6(cyber right leg)+3(natural rating)= 33/6 = 5
Displayed as Body: 3(5)

How does this look to everyone? Enhancements would still work the same way as before, just effecting that particular limb, but getting avaraged in just like normal.

[redwulf25]

Odd error. While modifying a Horizon-double revolution with an Engine Customization for Acceleration I got an error that says the object reference isn't set to an instance of an object. I've included the details it give me in a spoiler box in case it helps tell you what went wrong.

[ Spoiler ]

CODE

See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

************** Exception Text **************
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at Chummer.Vehicle.get_TotalAccel()
   at Chummer.frmCreate.RefreshSelectedVehicle()
   at Chummer.frmCreate.treVehicles_AfterSelect(Object sender, TreeViewEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.TreeView.OnAfterSelect(TreeViewEventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.TreeView.TvnSelected(NMTREEVIEW* nmtv)
   at System.Windows.Forms.TreeView.WmNotify(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.TreeView.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


************** Loaded Assemblies **************
mscorlib
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.225 (RTMGDR.030319-2200)
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.NET/Framework/v4.0.30319/mscorlib.dll
----------------------------------------
Chummer
    Assembly Version: 0.0.0.57
    Win32 Version: 0.0.0.57
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Users/Martin/Desktop/Shadowrun/Chummer.exe
----------------------------------------
System.Windows.Forms
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Drawing
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll
----------------------------------------
System
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Xml
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Core
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.0.30319.1 built by: RTMRel
    CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Core/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Core.dll
----------------------------------------

************** JIT Debugging **************
To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
application or computer (machine.config) must have the
jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
The application must also be compiled with debugging
enabled.

For example:

<configuration>
    <system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
</configuration>

When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
rather than be handled by this dialog box.

[Wizard_Thoarin]

I don't think I'd consider the Torso a limb... Body and Head are usually considered the trunk of the body.

[Yerameyahu]

Argent, while I appreciate anti-munchkinry as much as anyone, 5-limb *customized* enhanced cyber is fairly prohibitive in cost and Essence already; I'm not sure how much of an actual problem it is. In addition, new house rules are great, but are they great in a chargen program?

Your 1-2-3 overview of the cyberlimb attributes RAW seemed right on, to me. AFAIK, the 5 'limbs' are indeed legs, arms, and torso.

[LonePaladin]

Also I don't know what the system wants when it asks me for a "value" when I buy a fake SIN.

Easy. Your fake ID's name. "John Smith" or "Ali t'Buger".

[Nebular]

Quick Technical Issue: Looks like specializations of knowledge skills are taking away skill points, but not adding any dice. Unless I've got it wrong.

This is a little misleading in the generator itself. If you view the character sheet, the Skill shows its base value and the Specialization total. I'll add the Specialization amount to the Skill Rating for the next update, so it will so 3(5) instead of just 3.

Suggestion: on the character sheet, might want to consider shading every second line light greay in the following areas for readability:

Actve Skills
Knowledge Skills
Contacts
Spells
Gear

I intended to do this after I got the basics of the sheet working, and then I completely forgot about it. I've added it to the list o' stuff so it actually gets done. Thanks for reminding me.