Chummer Character Generator Options

[ShadowWalker]

I've been looking at the wiki, and looking at the armor data file to get a feel for how it's laid out so I can make an data editor for each file.
So I've noticed a couple of things, and wanted to ask about them.
<addmodcategory> - I can't find any examples of this being used in the data file. Is it supposed to work the same way that <addoncategory> works or like <mods> and <gears>

Now I like consistency, things being done the same way.
<addoncategory> is basically a list, so is <mods> and <gears>, but the way they are implemented is different.
<addoncategory> has an entry for each category were as <mods> and <gears> have a subnode <name> and <usegear> respectively.
Is there any particular reason for the different way these were done?

The <gears> subnode <name> also has an attribute in the data file called "rating" are there any other attributes that can be applied to this node?

[Nebular]

There's a more serious inconsistency regarding magic loss though cyberware on char creation.
The new magic maximum is set correctly, but the lost magic points are way too cheap.

It appears what you're doing is (for essence loss x and magic attribute y): set magic to 0, develop with sum( 1 to x) * 5 to get 1 magic, sum(x+1 to y-x) * 5 to get back to the new magic value.

This would only be possible, if two requirements were given:
- it is possible during char gen to raise magic after implementing ware (NOT allowed)
- magic can be reduced to 0 (NOT possible, as with magic 0 the char turns mundane)

Effectively cybered awakened get a karma discount of (y-1)*5 that way.

The Karma costs to buy MAG/RES after ESS loss has been discussed at length in the past. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The Karma cost for increasing MAG is always based on its current value, not what its value would be if you didn't have ESS loss. So if you have MAG 4, install a piece of 'ware that reduces your ESS to 5.90, making your MAG go down to 3, it would cost you 15 Karma (3 x 5), not 20 (4 x 5), because 3 is the actual value. ESS loss is an actual reduction to the Attribute's value, not a penalty/modifier. I used to think it was a penalty as well and would prefer if from a programming standpoint, but that's apparently not how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'll have the Cyberware Grade thing fixed in the next update.

[Nebular]

I've been looking at the wiki, and looking at the armor data file to get a feel for how it's laid out so I can make an data editor for each file.
So I've noticed a couple of things, and wanted to ask about them.
<addmodcategory> - I can't find any examples of this being used in the data file. Is it supposed to work the same way that <addoncategory> works or like <mods> and <gears>

Now I like consistency, things being done the same way.
<addoncategory> is basically a list, so is <mods> and <gears>, but the way they are implemented is different.
<addoncategory> has an entry for each category were as <mods> and <gears> have a subnode <name> and <usegear> respectively.
Is there any particular reason for the different way these were done?

The <gears> subnode <name> also has an attribute in the data file called "rating" are there any other attributes that can be applied to this node?

<addmodcategory> is in use in the armor.xml data file. The Victory line of clothing, Form-Fitting Bull-Body Suit, and Full Body Armor all use them. A Mod doesn't show up in the list of available Mods for the selected Armor unless its category matches the Armor's category (such as "Clothing"), or if its category is explicitly added through <addmodcategory>. This is how the Victory clothes get access to the Victory Liners Mod.

<mods> and <gears> are done a little differently because of how Gear works. <usegear> requires the name of an item that appears in gear.xml and will create it as though you added the item like any other piece of Gear. <gear>, on the other hand, makes up a new piece of Gear on the spot and is really only use by pre-packaged Nexi in the Gears file.

I wish I could say there was a good reason for <addoncategory> being the way it is. It's the same structure as the tag in Cyberware, Bioware, and Gear. I had originally planned on only letting things only include one <addoncategory>. When the need for multiple add-on categories came up, more of <addoncategory> tags were added since the app already understood how to deal with it. It's not a pretty solution, but it works so I'm not about to go mucking around with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowWalker]

<addmodcategory> is in use in the armor.xml data file. The Victory line of clothing, Form-Fitting Bull-Body Suit, and Full Body Armor all use them. A Mod doesn't show up in the list of available Mods for the selected Armor unless its category matches the Armor's category (such as "Clothing"), or if its category is explicitly added through <addmodcategory>. This is how the Victory clothes get access to the Victory Liners Mod.

<mods> and <gears> are done a little differently because of how Gear works. <usegear> requires the name of an item that appears in gear.xml and will create it as though you added the item like any other piece of Gear. <gear>, on the other hand, makes up a new piece of Gear on the spot and is really only use by pre-packaged Nexi in the Gears file.

I wish I could say there was a good reason for <addoncategory> being the way it is. It's the same structure as the tag in Cyberware, Bioware, and Gear. I had originally planned on only letting things only include one <addoncategory>. When the need for multiple add-on categories came up, more of <addoncategory> tags were added since the app already understood how to deal with it. It's not a pretty solution, but it works so I'm not about to go mucking around with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

strange I did a search for addmodcategory and didn't find anything; I did the search in firefox. Guess I'll try notepad.

Does the <name> node under <mods> have anything beyond rating being attached to it?

[Nebular]

strange I did a search for addmodcategory and didn't find anything; I did the search in firefox. Guess I'll try notepad.

Does the <name> node under <mods> have anything beyond rating being attached to it?

Nope. rating is the only attribute that's allowed to be given to <name>. The tag must match the name of an existing Mod.

[Chinane]

The Karma costs to buy MAG/RES after ESS loss has been discussed at length in the past. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The Karma cost for increasing MAG is always based on its current value, not what its value would be if you didn't have ESS loss. So if you have MAG 4, install a piece of 'ware that reduces your ESS to 5.90, making your MAG go down to 3, it would cost you 15 Karma (3 x 5), not 20 (4 x 5), because 3 is the actual value. ESS loss is an actual reduction to the Attribute's value, not a penalty/modifier. I used to think it was a penalty as well and would prefer if from a programming standpoint, but that's apparently not how it works. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'll have the Cyberware Grade thing fixed in the next update.

Cost for raising an attribute is always (NEW rating)x5, so in your example raising magic back to 4 would indeed cost 20 (4x5). I think you meant to say it would not cost 25 karma, as in raising 4(3) to 5(4) if it were treated as a modifier.

However, i never disputed how chummer is treating raising magic AFTER essence loss. The problem is specific for character creation.

Please check out what i wrote before:

[EDIT] Major analysis under a wrong assumption removed, I was correct in my first post above about chummer always giving a karma discount.

[ShadowWalker]

Cost for raising an attribute is always (NEW rating)x5, so in your example raising magic back to 4 would indeed cost 20 (4x5). I think you meant to say it would not cost 25 karma, as in raising 4(3) to 5(4) if it were treated as a modifier.

However, i never disputed how chummer is treating raising magic AFTER essence loss. The problem is specific for character creation.

Please check out what i wrote before:



After rereading the karma build rules i would actually take that back. It does seem to be allowed to go back and raise magic after implementing the 'ware.

However:



This rule still applies.

So the CHEAPEST way to compensate 1 magic loss from cyberware is raising MAG to 2 for 10 karma, implementing the 'ware and then going back to raise MAG to the desired value. Since chummer is lowering magic to 0 and then reraising, it does so for only 5 karma.

Unfortunately it gets more complicated than before, due to my misconception about not being allowed to go back (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The cheapest way to compensate for 2 magic loss by 'ware where no 'ware rating is >1 is for 20 karma, by compensating each separate point individually. If that's not possible, because there is a piece of 'ware with rating 1.x, the cost is 25 karma. Chummer doesn't differ between those situations and uses 15 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

At 3 magic loss, chummer actually has a chance to be correct (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . Depending on individual 'ware ratings, minimum cost to reraise can be anything from 30 to 45 karma (in steps of 5). Chummer will use 30 flat.

At 4/5 magic loss respectively, chummer can actually cost more than the optimal cost if possible. Minimum costs range from 40/50 to 70/100. Chummer uses 50/75 flat.

Where and in what rulebook does it say you can't go back and change an attribute while doing cyberware?

Chummer still decreases the max as well as the current, it just happens that it assumes that the original value you entered is really the one you want and spends more BP on making sure it stays at that value. If this is not to your liking you can always go back and decrease it down the way you think it should. It will come out to the same exact cost that it would if chummer hadn't increased it for you back to the original.

The maximum magic can cost in BP at character creation is 65. 40 to get to a 5 and 25 more to get to a 65, and this is what Chummer does if you watch the numbers as you move the attribute around.

[Nebular]

Cost for raising an attribute is always (NEW rating)x5, so in your example raising magic back to 4 would indeed cost 20 (4x5). I think you meant to say it would not cost 25 karma, as in raising 4(3) to 5(4) if it were treated as a modifier.

Yes, sorry, I was going through a few things at once and messed that up. It would be 20 (new rating x 5). Duh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

From what I'm seeing, the costs in Chummer are still correct. Essence penalties are not applied during character creation; they're applied at the very end as describe under Finishing Touches on SR4 88. You cannot go back and change Attributes after that because you've finished creating your character. The way Chummer works emulates that by always presenting you with the numbers as though you have finished the creation process. I really don't want to get into this discussion again; this was addressed way back in May (build 78) with a rather lengthy series of messages and discussions and hasn't been an issue since.

As ShadowWalker mentioned, the number you enter is what is assumes you want your final MAG/RES to be. It will only decrease the current MAG/RES value if the maximum has gone below that.

[Chinane]

Where and in what rulebook does it say you can't go back and change an attribute while doing cyberware?

I realized that the karma system is more lenient than i originally thought and modified my second post accordingly, please reread.

Chummer still decreases the max as well as the current, it just happens that it assumes that the original value you entered is really the one you want and spends more BP on making sure it stays at that value. If this is not to your liking you can always go back and decrease it down the way you think it should. It will come out to the same exact cost that it would if chummer hadn't increased it for you back to the original.

That is flat out wrong.

The maximum magic can cost in BP at character creation is 65. 40 to get to a 5 and 25 more to get to a 65, and this is what Chummer does if you watch the numbers as you move the attribute around.

Firstly, please check my post, i'm using karma build, not BP build.

Secondly, checking what chummer does when the attribute is maxxed is how i caught it in the first place. Magic 6 is 100 karma. Cybering 1 point with magic 6 reduces the spent karma to 75. There is no workaround for that behaviour.

[Chinane]

From what I'm seeing, the costs in Chummer are still correct. Essence penalties are not applied during character creation; they're applied at the very end as describe under Finishing Touches on SR4 88. You cannot go back and change Attributes after that because you've finished creating your character.

If that is also true under the karma build system, my first post would again be valid and chummer _always_ gives a karma discount of (final magic)x5.
[EDIT:] I just checked, the finishing touches step is indeed also in the karma build rules, so maximum values apply.

This does NOT happen when building with BP btw. only for chargen with karma rules. It only now occured to me to check with BP.

P.S. Sorry for unburying a dead horse here, maybe you've not been aware of the difference in karma rules, though? Again, if you fully develop magic to 6 and THEN cyber up, used karma should not change. It drops from 100 to 75, though.

[Nebular]

If that is also true under the karma build system, my first post would again be valid and chummer _always_ gives a karma discount of (final magic)x5.
[EDIT:] I just checked, the finishing touches step is indeed also in the karma build rules, so maximum values apply.

This does NOT happen when building with BP btw. only for chargen with karma rules. It only now occured to me to check with BP.

P.S. Sorry for unburying a dead horse here, maybe you've not been aware of the difference in karma rules, though? Again, if you fully develop magic to 6 and THEN cyber up, used karma should not change. It drops from 100 to 75, though.

Ok, I see what you're saying now! There was obviously some misunderstanding there - I saw the Karma cost formula and was thinking the Karma cost of improving a character during their career, but when you said in character gen I immediately went back to thinking in BP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) This is an issue that only happens with Karma gen. It works properly with BP. I'll have this fixed for the next update. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just so we're on the same page: You buy MAG 6 (100 Karma). Add 1.4 ESS worth of 'ware, reducing your MAG to an effective 4 (or even 3.5 ESS reducing you to MAG 2). It should still cost 100 Karma in both scenarios, correct?

[Chinane]

Ok, I see what you're saying now! There was obviously some misunderstanding there - I saw the Karma cost formula and was thinking the Karma cost of improving a character during their career, but when you said in character gen I immediately went back to thinking in BP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) This is an issue that only happens with Karma gen. It works properly with BP. I'll have this fixed for the next update. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just so we're on the same page: You buy MAG 6 (100 Karma). Add 1.4 ESS worth of 'ware, reducing your MAG to an effective 4 (or even 3.5 ESS reducing you to MAG 2). It should still cost 100 Karma in both scenarios, correct?

Precisely.

MAG 6 is easy, though.

Your main problem will be if someone does not max out magic, buys cyberware and later (still in char-gen!) decides he needs more magic.
For example:

- buying 'ware at MAG 4
- chummer (after being fixed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) conserves MAG 4 for 25 karma (so far so good)
- raising MAG to 5 will cost 25 karma, but chummer also needs to re-adjust the cost for the removed MAG point to 30

[Nebular]

Precisely.

MAG 6 is easy, though.

Your main problem will be if someone does not max out magic, buys cyberware and later (still in char-gen!) decides he needs more magic.
For example:

- buying 'ware at MAG 4
- chummer (after being fixed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) conserves MAG 4 for 25 karma (so far so good)
- raising MAG to 5 will cost 25 karma, but chummer also needs to re-adjust the cost for the removed MAG point to 30

MAG 4 in Karma gen should cost 20 Karma for a total of 45 (MAG 1 is free with the Quality + MAG 2 (10) + MAG 3 (15) + MAG 4 (20)).
If you add a piece of 'ware, your effective MAG stays at 4 but now costs you a total of 70 Karma since it's actually MAG 5 during character generation (+25 Karma).
If you then wanted to bump it up to an effective 5 (6 actual during character gen), it would cost you an extra 30 for a total of 100.

Buying MAG 6 and adding .4 ESS worth of 'ware to drop you to 5 vs. buying MAG 4, adding .4 ESS worth of 'ware to drop you to 3, then putting yourself up to MAG 5 all cost the same, regardless of the order since the ESS penalties are applied to MAG/RES at the very end of the creation process.

That might sound a little nutty - I'm thinking in actual and effective values at the same time. The numbers are working out properly now in my development copy. I'll have an update out this evening. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chinane]

MAG 4 in Karma gen should cost 20 Karma for a total of 45 (MAG 1 is free with the Quality + MAG 2 (10) + MAG 3 (15) + MAG 4 (20)).
If you add a piece of 'ware, your effective MAG stays at 4 but now costs you a total of 70 Karma since it's actually MAG 5 during character generation (+25 Karma).
If you then wanted to bump it up to an effective 5 (6 actual during character gen), it would cost you an extra 30 for a total of 100.

Buying MAG 6 and adding .4 ESS worth of 'ware to drop you to 5 vs. buying MAG 4, adding .4 ESS worth of 'ware to drop you to 3, then putting yourself up to MAG 5 all cost the same, regardless of the order since the ESS penalties are applied to MAG/RES at the very end of the creation process.

That might sound a little nutty - I'm thinking in actual and effective values at the same time. The numbers are working out properly now in my development copy. I'll have an update out this evening. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Doesn't sound nutty at all, just worded it a bit differently from me with the same result. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(Internally i would also have used actual and effective stat)

[Chinane]

Kinetics is limited to 3 levels now. Powers data file doesn't show that yet.

[Nebular]

Kinetics is limited to 3 levels now. Powers data file doesn't show that yet.

I've updated the Powers data file to correct this.

[forgarn]

I have noticed a couple things:

1) Ruthenium Polymer Coating does not take any capacity on armor or helmets (Arsenal pg.50)
2) Quick Release on Military armor uses 2 capacity not 1 (Arsenal pg.182)
3) Barrel Extension increases each range category by 10%. My Sniper Rifle without is 150/350/800/1500. With Barrel Extension it should be 165/385/880/1650, but chummer calculated it at 180/420/960/1800 (using the 20% for the reduction instead of the 10%).

[Nebular]

I have noticed a couple things:

1) Ruthenium Polymer Coating does not take any capacity on armor or helmets (Arsenal pg.50)
2) Quick Release on Military armor uses 2 capacity not 1 (Arsenal pg.182)
3) Barrel Extension increases each range category by 10%. My Sniper Rifle without is 150/350/800/1500. With Barrel Extension it should be 165/385/880/1650, but chummer calculated it at 180/420/960/1800 (using the 20% for the reduction instead of the 10%).

Nuts. I've updated the Armor and Weapons data files to correct these. Thanks for pointing 'em out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chinane]

Heh, i was just about to bring up capacity for armors too.

I thought the reason for them always having rating 0 might be because you named the tag <armorcapacity> in XML and later went with a general <capacity> tag for gear?

[deurk]

Heh, i was just about to bring up capacity for armors too.

I thought the reason for them always having rating 0 might be because you named the tag <armorcapacity> in XML and later went with a general <capacity> tag for gear?

I think it is more linked to the AR,44 rule about armor capacity (you can check the options of Chummer regarding that).

[forgarn]

Nuts. I've updated the Armor and Weapons data files to correct these. Thanks for pointing 'em out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry, I did find another one. The YNT Softweave is a material and does not show a capacity at all. It is like the Ruthenium Polymer Coating and is added to the armor. You have capacity of 1 and it should be 0.

[Chinane]

I think it is more linked to the AR,44 rule about armor capacity (you can check the options of Chummer regarding that).

Yeah, that's the reason, thank you.

[Nebular]

Build 311

• added support for <notoriety /> to the Improvement Manager which adjusts the character's Notoriety rating
• Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness now automatically calculate based on the formulas from SR4 265 in addition to using the GM-awarded bonus fields that are already present
• fixed an issue where Cyberware Essence costs would occasionally round to 3 decimal places instead of 2
• fixed an issue where Cyberware would always be added as Standard Grade when in Create Mode, regardless of the Grade that was selected in the Add Cyberware window
• standard Gear can now include <system>, <response>, and <firewall> to assign these attributes for non-Commlink devices
• fixed an issue where MAG/RES cost was not being calculated correct in Create Mode when building with Karma and the character has reduced their essence through Cyberware/Bioware

New Strings

• Message_BurnStreetCred
• MessageTitle_BurnStreetCred
• Label_StreetCred
• Label_Notoriety
• Label_PublicAwareness
• Tip_BurnStreetCred
• String_CareerKarma
• String_StreetCred
• String_BurntStreetCred
• String_Notoriety

[ShadowWalker]

Build 311[list]
[*]standard Gear can now include <system>, <response>, and <firewall> to assign these attributes for non-Commlink devices

No signal?
How do you use this with already existing gear? Just use the Commlink Upgrades Operating Systems Category so that it adds that attribute? Does it work with Cyberware?

Edit: Looks like the window includes Signal, so probably just an accidental omission.

Noticed that there is no Signal 0 in the Commlink Upgrades category. Which normally wouldn't be a problem unless the above is true.
Many devices have a zero signal, such as cyberware. Who wants someone a km away to hack their cyberware? hehe

[Nebular]

No signal?
How do you use this with already existing gear? Just use the Commlink Upgrades Operating Systems Category so that it adds that attribute? Does it work with Cyberware?

Edit: Looks like the window includes Signal, so probably just an accidental omission.

Noticed that there is no Signal 0 in the Commlink Upgrades category. Which normally wouldn't be a problem unless the above is true.
Many devices have a zero signal, such as cyberware. Who wants someone a km away to hack their cyberware? hehe

Standard Gear already supported Signal, so it was intentionally left out in saying "here's what's new". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)