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> One Character to Rule Them All, A theoretical character build question
mister__joshua
post Apr 7 2011, 09:04 AM
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This is a simple question, but one that will have a complex answer. It's something I've been thinking about while reading various sourcebooks and so I thought I'd put it out there.

Is it possible to build a character that really can 'do it all'? Obviously, due to the nature of the system, over an infinite amount of time and with an infinite amount of karma any character could max out every skill, every stat, initiate to an exponential level etc. but this is unfeasible. My question is more about if you had to build a character to act alone, as a solo, covering every role in the party, how would you do it? Is it even possible? I'm thinking money no object, so you can cram the 'ware in, but BPs should be at least reasonable (4 or 5 hundred). Where you can get 'ware or software to replace or enhance skills, go for it! I think things like Skillwires and Agents will both be key, but maybe other people see it differently.

This is mostly just a theoretical excercise so have some fun with it. I know there are broken builds in shadowrun, as in any game, with people running faster than cars and shooting bows that hit like artillery. This isn't about being exploitative, just being really good in any and every situation. Sort of like Future James Bond.

I look forward to any replies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Abstruse
post Apr 7 2011, 09:14 AM
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Almost impossible because there are two essential builds that can't function in the same body: Hacker and magic. Hackers require cyber to be effective and must spend a LOT of money. Magicians cannot have cyber to be effective and must spend a LOT of karma. You could MAYBE squeak out a build that could do both, but there's no way you'd be even remotely effective in combat or as a face (both also required roles, but ones that can easily be combined).

Basically, there's 4 areas that every team has to address to be a "balanced" team: Hacking, combat, magic, and face. Someone has to handle electronic security, someone has to handle magical security/threats, someone has to be able to run a con, and someone has to be able to protect the others when the bullets start flying. There are other skills that are important to have, but those are the ones I consider essential. You can double up easily (shaman/face, combat mage, combat rigger/hacker), but you'd need at least a two-man team to cover all four bases.
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Elfenlied
post Apr 7 2011, 09:17 AM
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A Pixie Mystic Adept with Voodoo tradition could probably pull it off.

Combat: Spells+Guardian Spirits+Guns
Technical Skills: Adept abilities+Task spirits
Social Skills: High Charisma+Mindrape+Physical Mask
Matrix: Skills+Software+Adept powers
Stealth: Concealment+Small size+Spells

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Nothing it can't pull off, though you need a few initiations to really do it (Cleansing vs Backgroundcount, Improved Masking to hide Physical Mask's aura, and arguably Channeling)
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Blade
post Apr 7 2011, 09:32 AM
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It can be done, I've seen it. I don't remember all the ways, but here are a few:

- "I edge, I redline, I center and I infuse" : A slightly cybered mystical adept character with a few initiation ranks, the centering and infusion metamagic and a lot of rating 1 powers. She infuses her powers according to the needs. She does combat, hacking/rigging, facing and some magic with something like 14 dice in most situations.

- The Owlmaster: a hacker/rigger with as many trained Oracle Owl as possible. He has the Oracle Owls summon Air Spirits and hand it over to him. The Air spirits do all physical and magical work, he does the hacking/rigging.

- The pixie inside a drone: a pixie stuck inside a drone. The pixie does the facing/hacking/rigging and magic, the drone does the rest.

- Mr Lucky Everything: An Edge 8 Awakened character with decent hacking gear and some basic skills and gear.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 7 2011, 09:41 AM
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Rules as Written
Troll, augmented Hermetic Magician.

Skillwires 5 (1.00 Essence), Skillwire Expert System (0.10 Essence), Muscle Toner 2 (0.40 Essence), Tailored Pheromones 3 (0.60 Essence), Cerebral Booster 2 (0.40 Essence)

Total Essence Loss: 1.95
Mag 6 (4), Edg 4, Bod 5, Agi 4 (6), Rea 4, Str 5, Cha 3, Int 4, Log 4 (6), Wil 5
Assensing 1, Counterspelling 4, Binding 4, Spellcasting 5, Summoning 5

x10 Spells (Increased Reflexes priority, heal, illusion, & manipulation effects suggested)
Highest Initiate Grade possible (if available; Invoking high priority)
Increase augmentation grades & ratings if possible. Add cybereyes if possible. (do not exceed 2.00 Essence Loss)
Invest in high-end Commlink (hardware), high-end Agent, moderate Browse, Firewall, & System. All other software (inc skillsofts) easily available post-generation free of charge, low timeframe, no effort.
Good weapon selection
Rating 4 Sustaining Focus (health)
Highest armor rating available (without encumbrance)
Contacts as appropriate
All additional resources into foci (particularly Power & Sustaining) & binding materials; 'legitimate' software if desired.



Did not add everything together, but should be easily doable with 500BP or less. Invest in utility qualities if possible (mentor spirit, first impression, etc).

Tip: Abuse drugs as much as possible (strong addiction resistance pool). Anything that reduces the chances of addiction is good.
Reminder: You cannot use Edge to add dice to a skillsoft test, but can use it to reroll a failed test. Edge for conjuring in particular is good.


Note: This is the primary reason I think skillwires are bullshit as written - suggest replace with fixed dice pool of 2 + skillsoft Rating, limit to skills linked to Physical attributes. Create second version for skills linked to mental attributes & require for knowsofts etc. Retain skillsoft rating limit of 4 & all other restrictions on use. Increase Essence/Nuyen costs of augmentation itself if using below suggestion for software.
Note: This is a significant reason why I think software & programs as written are an unnecessary & poorly executed complication to the system - suggest remove software. Matrix actions use Skill + Logic. Increase costs of high-end hardware & general usefulness of hacking-oriented 'ware to maintain a division between dedicated hacker and 'secondary skill' hacker. Limit AR matrix actions to 1 IP per combat turn, require implanted DNI for hot-sim (trode net & similar sufficient for cold-sim).






Edit: I had 'first post' when I began typing.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 7 2011, 10:08 AM
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I would just like to note that the above character is a jack of all trades, and quasi-master in most. He cannot match a hyper-specialist in any single field, but comes pretty damn close to many and easily overwhelms them in versatility.
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mister__joshua
post Apr 7 2011, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 7 2011, 11:08 AM) *
I would just like to note that the above character is a jack of all trades, and quasi-master in most. He cannot however match a hyper-specialist in any single field, but comes pretty damn close to many and easily overwhelms them in versatility.


That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about, someone who can be as close as possible to great without being hyper specialised. I thought it may even be possible to do this while also mastering a single field.


From your notes, can I take it you think Skill Wires and high end Matrix programs/unrestricted agents are overpowered in a bang for your buck sort of way, cos that was my original thought, and what led me to think it may be possible in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 7 2011, 10:27 AM
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I do not play that kind of character. I much prefer a powerful specialist (I enjoy higher-level games usually).

I did however play with that kind of character once, as a technomancer elf. By himself he turned every character except me (the magician) into a redundancy through the use of skillwires & drugs (the downsides of drugs can be mostly negated if done correctly). Needless to say, it was not enjoyable, and yes, skillwires are broken. Although they did try to fix them in SR4A by increasing skillsoft prices, this just made them unusable for many characters without actually hurting the problem.

Agents have their own problems, but for software in general it's not an unbalancing thing. It's just a rather stupid and poorly done subsystem for the matrix. In addition to that, matrix crap is the only area you cannot have a competent secondary skill in by investing in a decent skill or two and attribute, along with some decent basic equipment (for magic, spells & qualities are 'basic equipment', although it is a bit expensive for the comparison). This is because of the necessary cost of numerous high-end programs to even remotely resemble anything competent (easily matching or exceeding the Magician quality). The increased hardware costs & augmentation effects I suggested is to allow a dedicated hacker to really be a specialist, while allowing a competent hacking secondary skill at all.
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Elfenlied
post Apr 7 2011, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 7 2011, 10:27 AM) *
I did however play with that kind of character once, as a technomancer elf. By himself he turned every character except me (the magician) into a redundancy through the use of skillwires & drugs (the downsides of drugs can be mostly negated if done correctly). Needless to say, it was not enjoyable, and yes, skillwires are broken. Although they did try to fix them in SR4A by increasing skillsoft prices, this just made them unusable for many characters without actually hurting the problem.


Which, in turn, made them useless for Karmagen at Chargen, and only useful in play if you happen to acquire a lot more cash than Karma. Or if pirated software is available.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 7 2011, 11:12 AM
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1) Karma generation RAW (pre-errata) is horribly broken.
2) Karma generation RAW (post-errata) is just as bad as BP generation.
3) Both karma generation rules sets will, at worst, have no real effect on the build.
4) Karma generation is not default, and so cannot be assumed. To do so is frankly retarded.
5) It is both easy and cheap to maintain pirated software. SR4A errata did impact this, but not enough to stop it, especially when it is executed properly (assuming agents can't use Software, something I have seen posted but never bothered to confirm - if they can, it's free).
6) A techomancer can very easily maintain a nearly unlimited supply of maximum-rating pirated skillsofts at virtually no cost or effort.
7) Skillwires are fucking broken Rules as Written. They enable characters like the one above - essentially a single character shadowrun team. They are only one of the problems.
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mister__joshua
post Apr 7 2011, 11:12 AM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Apr 7 2011, 11:54 AM) *
only useful in play if you happen to acquire a lot more cash than Karma.


This seems like being the case in the game we're playing at least.

Here's the problem I'm having. I'm currently playing in a game where there are 4 combat-oriented characters. Some, melee, some ranged but all combat. There is a technomancer. Then there is me. I was GM for a bit so made my character last, and I'm trying to fill some of the missing party roles. I made a driver/face of sorts as ours is a low-magic game for the moment at least. Now, our technomancer has just died, and the player doesn't fancy making another matrix character, so that's another role thats now not filled. In honesty, I really don't mind this as I've always liked to play characters with a mix of abilities. Currently I'm trying to work out how to fill as many roles as possible to a limited degree, and in the quickest and cheapest way possible...
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 7 2011, 11:24 AM
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I looked at the build I posted above again, and it's about ~450 BP Rules as Written. You can trim it down a little bit easily enough and still have a minimum dice pool of 8 for nearly every action in the game (before applying any situational penalties, of course), while still being a respectable face (particularly if you fit SURGE II in for Glamour), and a powerful & versatile magician.

This is still a character I would suggest not playing though, as it's bullshit like this that made me write a (currently incomplete & possibly out of date) house errata document larger than the official errata to balance the game.
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Epicedion
post Apr 7 2011, 04:32 PM
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You could always use the Priority system from Runner's Companion. Simpler, and much less prone to abuse than BP.
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Hamsnibit
post Apr 7 2011, 05:07 PM
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In my opinion, nearly every chargen conzept has abusive potential if you are really up to it.
Some people (especially those with this remarkable haircut) tend to max their characters in one way or another. It depends on what people expect and like about PnP RPGs and for my needs patched karmagen just produces more "realistic" feeling and generally smoother characters since it does not punish you for spending 1-2 points in skills like etiquette, computer,data seach, swimming, running ect. . Those skills nearly everyone posseses who simply has lived a certain time and did not spent his whole time (and even these ones may have acquired specific other skills) hunting for the next meal or shelter. And is also in line with the character developement system after you started (you earn karma, remember?). Rolling your 2 dice with a normal guy who is used to walk around in the sprawl feels so sad when you roll all those critical glitches.

just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
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Epicedion
post Apr 7 2011, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Hamsnibit @ Apr 7 2011, 01:07 PM) *
In my opinion, nearly every chargen conzept has abusive potential if you are really up to it.
Some people (especially those with this remarkable haircut) tend to max their characters in one way or another. It depends on what people expect and like about PnP RPGs and for my needs patched karmagen just produces more "realistic" feeling and generally smoother characters since it does not punish you for spending 1-2 points in skills like etiquette, computer,data seach, swimming, running ect. . Those skills nearly everyone posseses who simply has lived a certain time and did not spent his whole time (and even these ones may have acquired specific other skills) hunting for the next meal or shelter. And is also in line with the character developement system after you started (you earn karma, remember?). Rolling your 2 dice with a normal guy who is used to walk around in the sprawl feels so sad when you roll all those critical glitches.

just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)


Karmagen does have the benefit of having to follow a more-for-better mentality, which is nice -- you aren't trading the 5th skill point for the first point of another skill, on equal footing.

The Priority system forces you to make extremely important big-picture trade-offs, as opposed to small detailed ones. If you want to be the best magician, you can't have the most money or the best attributes. If you want to be an Elf or Troll, you're trading in your second-best Priority for the option.

On a side note, whenever my players use BP generation, they always, every single time, are trying to figure out what to do with an extra 10k or more nuyen.
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Seerow
post Apr 7 2011, 05:47 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Apr 7 2011, 05:45 PM) *
Karmagen does have the benefit of having to follow a more-for-better mentality, which is nice -- you aren't trading the 5th skill point for the first point of another skill, on equal footing.

The Priority system forces you to make extremely important big-picture trade-offs, as opposed to small detailed ones. If you want to be the best magician, you can't have the most money or the best attributes. If you want to be an Elf or Troll, you're trading in your second-best Priority for the option.

On a side note, whenever my players use BP generation, they always, every single time, are trying to figure out what to do with an extra 10k or more nuyen.


Really? Every time I make a character I am left trying to figure out where I can get another 10k nuyen to afford everything I want. Even going max in debt and born rich seems like it's not enough sometimes.
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Epicedion
post Apr 7 2011, 05:53 PM
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Well, they usually don't aim for 0.1 Essence, and pick up moderate boosts as opposed to "the best" of one thing. Sure you could drop 240k (and Restricted Gear) on a rating 3 Synaptic Booster, and then be super-poor otherwise, but you've got to have something to look forward to, yeah?
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CanRay
post Apr 7 2011, 10:33 PM
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One character that can "Do It All"?

Pornomancer. (S)He can do it all by convincing everyone else to do it for him/her.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 7 2011, 10:51 PM
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This is how I see it, but I haven't played a mage or hacker yet, and from what I've seen, the guys in my party who play mage and hacker haven't really explored the possibilities of their builds.

Mage: mob management; tricksy spells
Hacker: data gathering; cyber combat; security clearance
Face: handling entities that can't be handled through combat; getting jobs; getting equipment
Street Samurai: combat; infiltration (I guess anyone could take this role)

I think you could handle the game with a stealthy Street Samurai/Face. In abstract, he has the two extremes nailed: huge progress through diplomacy, and chunky salsa where diplomacy fails.

This builld benefits from the extreme attention given to these two classes in the books. Essentially, you create the strongest firearms expert you can (with attention to charisma and stealth based skills), steal a number of cheap bonuses from the pornomancer to get your social dice pools to about 20, and finally buy a number of handy knick-knacks like smart firing platforms, armor debonder, monowire and triggering mechanisms.

A word to the wise: focus on acting first rather than acting often. synaptic boosters cost hella money, and wired reflexes are such an essence drain it's not even funny (the joke here is that someone with wired reflexes wouldn't think it was funny because their sense of humor would be cybered out of them). In short, you can always try again or set a trap if you escape.

Last but not least, get "erased" or some equivalent quality so that when you try flying under the radar, you are 100% gone.
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Makki
post Apr 7 2011, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 7 2011, 06:33 PM) *
One character that can "Do It All"?

Pornomancer. (S)He can do it all by convincing everyone else to do it for him/her.


he can do them all
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Glyph
post Apr 8 2011, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 7 2011, 03:51 PM) *
A word to the wise: focus on acting first rather than acting often. synaptic boosters cost hella money, and wired reflexes are such an essence drain it's not even funny (the joke here is that someone with wired reflexes wouldn't think it was funny because their sense of humor would be cybered out of them). In short, you can always try again or set a trap if you escape.

Extra initiative passes are an absolutely critical component for being effective in combat. Without them, you are just a face who happens to be a good shot. Also, things like wired reflexes increase Reaction, too, which is why street samurai tend to go first and go often.

Not every face will need extra initiative passes, but any character claiming "sammie" as part of their job description should have at least two initiative passes, and preferably three or four.
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whatevs
post Apr 8 2011, 02:25 AM
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For a universal character, i'd have to go with a magician. Multiple ip's, damage, infiltration, face work. There's an ap (spell) for that. Hacking is the only thing off the top of my head that can't be done directky with magic, but as per raw a little bit of money for some programs and some trodes or whatever and you're almost there.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 8 2011, 04:36 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 7 2011, 06:01 PM) *
Extra initiative passes are an absolutely critical component for being effective in combat. Without them, you are just a face who happens to be a good shot. Also, things like wired reflexes increase Reaction, too, which is why street samurai tend to go first and go often.

Not every face will need extra initiative passes, but any character claiming "sammie" as part of their job description should have at least two initiative passes, and preferably three or four.

What I meant was that you should stick to 2 passes for character creation (1 is better, but it's nice to have that other one if you screw up), where I normally like 3-4. The idea is, if you're facing more than 2-4 enemies solo, you shouldn't be fighting head on. The stealth and high DPS are for making absolutely sure that there are only 1-2 enemies on your battlefield at once.
Otherwise, I agree with you. A party is not mobile, nor can they all soak damage. In that case your ideal plan is to just blitzkrieg everything to kingdom come. I'm proposing a setup where you choose the terms of battle, which involve a long hallway with you at the end, and an escape route nearby.
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Whipstitch
post Apr 8 2011, 05:29 AM
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That's super limiting though. I mean, it's not uncommon for me to sic something like an entire pack of Ferret minidrones or guard dogs on my players before the human element of the security team even puts down their coffee mugs. Yeah, sure, a 9 reaction front liner can avoid such attacks from a few opponents like that consistently, but if they're only taking down a couple a combat turn the Face might rather quickly be forced to find out if the "Don't tase me bro," strategy works any better with 7 Charisma. Being able to do a large amount of damage per pass is nice, but so is being able to do a high amount of damage per combat turn, and adding a pass or two does that rather efficiently while giving you some wiggle room if and when more characters enter a combat scene.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 8 2011, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Apr 7 2011, 09:29 PM) *
That's super limiting though. I mean, it's not uncommon for me to sic something like an entire pack of Ferret minidrones or guard dogs on my players before the human element of the security team even puts down their coffee mugs. Yeah, sure, a 9 reaction front liner can avoid such attacks from a few opponents like that consistently, but if they're only taking down a couple a combat turn the Face might rather quickly be forced to find out if the "Don't tase me bro," strategy works any better with 7 Charisma. Being able to do a large amount of damage per pass is nice, but so is being able to do a high amount of damage per combat turn, and adding a pass or two does that rather efficiently while giving you some wiggle room if and when more characters enter a combat scene.

Maybe, Maybe. But I have yet to see one who can outsmart smartgun (actually, why did I say that? I'm not aiming to be the Heavy).
My reasoning is that if they start overwhelming me, it's possible the AK-97s I laid down on smart firing platforms aren't doing their jobs. or my chameleon suit isn't working too well with my flash-pak to keep them guessing.
Luckily I chose a narrow alley with a sewer at the end, good thing they can only come one at a time. Dang, getting pushed back again. I'll activate the wireless detonator caps I laid on the building supports down the alley from me. Suddenly the group I'm currently facing is buried under rubble. Next group gets into the area that was too strong for me to blow up, so I pull some chunky salsa with a frag grenade. walls 1m on either side, so 12+10+8+6+4+2 DV = 42 DV without scatter. At this point I hear a chopper coming, so I sacrifice a flash pak and disappear into the sewers.

It seems to me that this is just a different play style.
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