Most versatile weapon skills, Pistols+Longarms or Automatics? Options

[Elfenlied]

Hello all,
I've got a quick question: If you're strapped for points (let's assume Karmagen), and had to choose a combat skill, what would it be? IMO, you can either choose a high automatics skills or a combination of a low pistols skill and a medium longarms skill. Now, each have their repective advantages:

Automatics:
+versatile (anything from +2 concealment to +6 concealment)
+high damage output through autofire
+cheaper (Karmawise)
-difficult to bypass hardened armor
-high ammo costs
-cannot compete in the high-end damage/range segment

Pistols+Longarms:
+even more versatile (anything from -4 to +6)
+high damage (Sniper Rifles, Shotguns)
+lower ammo costs
-more expensive (Longarms 4 + Pistols 2 costs the same as Automatics 5 (34 Karma), assuming you specialize)
-access to high caliber rifles will likely be difficult


Now, what do you guys at dumpshock think about it?

[Summerstorm]

Well, small arms have a HUGE plus with being concealable AND also accepted in many situations. No one ever looks at you wrong carrying agun in public. While an automatic weapon you have to smuggle around.

I would enter Heavy weapons into the count though.

- Has an "Sniper-Rifle category (Railgun, Panther etc.)
- Mass anti-personal or payload (Grenade Launcher)
- Pistol-Like anti-personal (Grenade pistol)
- Automatic Fire (LMG's and such)

[noonesshowmonkey]

What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?

2 x 4 + 2 (spec) for rank 2 pistol (spec) + 4 x 4 + 2 (spec) = 28 build points, leaving you just two shy of rank 3 Firearms group, and just a couple of karma short of spec.

I never understand why people think it's cool to be God's gift to pistol shooting but, when passed a real firearm like a rifle, be about as useful as a drooling idiot.

[Elfenlied]

What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?

2 x 4 + 2 (spec) for rank 2 pistol (spec) + 4 x 4 + 2 (spec) = 28 build points, leaving you just two shy of rank 3 Firearms group, and just a couple of karma short of spec.

I never understand why people think it's cool to be God's gift to pistol shooting but, when passed a real firearm like a rifle, be about as useful as a drooling idiot.

Hello all,
I've got a quick question: If you're strapped for points (let's assume Karmagen), and had to choose a combat skill, what would it be?

Emphasis mine. Firearms 3 costs 35 Karma, compared to Longarms 4 + Pistols 2, which costs 30. Now, I'm not sure if the extra proficiency is worth the extra cost.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Emphasis mine. Firearms 3 costs 35 Karma, compared to Longarms 4 + Pistols 2, which costs 30. Now, I'm not sure if the extra proficiency is worth the extra cost.

I guess that, when I am strapped for points, I take skill groups at one rank lower than I would splitting that group for the sake of having a high and a low skill. I'd rather be versatile than over specialized when points-strapped. I mean, if firearms skills are where you are looking to save points, then you aren't a shooting character. Else, you'd be specifically spending your points there.

To reiterate, I have found Group 3 to be better than Skill-a 2, Skill-b 4.

Finally, I don't know the Karmagen rules well, but can you spec a group skill with it? If so, have your cake and eat it, too. Firearms Group 3 and spec into whatever you want from there.

Anyways, to the OP: automatics are hard to beat for versatility.

[StealthSigma]

What is wrong with the Firearms Group, again?

It contains three skills rather than four. All of the three count skill groups are narrowly tailored in the sense that you need to use or have reason to expect to use all three skills in order to justify the cost. The four count skill groups also require the use or reason to use three skills but you at least have some variance within the group.

If you are strapped for points, as the original poster is, it's generally a bad idea to take an option that requires MORE points unless it can allow you to reduce points needed elsewhere.

I guess that, when I am strapped for points, I take skill groups at one rank lower than I would splitting that group for the sake of having a high and a low skill. I'd rather be versatile than over specialized when points-strapped. I mean, if firearms skills are where you are looking to save points, then you aren't a shooting character. Else, you'd be specifically spending your points there.

Honestly, I don't like the Firearms skill group. Of all the three count skill groups, it's probably one of the least versatile that is of interest to PCs. On any given run you're most likely to use one skill in the group rather than more than one. If you use two it's almost always going to be Pistol + Automatics or Pistol + Longarm. Rarely is it going to be Longarm + Automatics. Using all three is going to be exceedingly rare. If you're looking for versatility, the firearms group may be better replaced with skill wires and activesofts.

Also, this may just be my interpretation, you cannot acquire specializations on a skill group unless you raise one of the skills outside of the group. So there is no gameplay difference between Firearms(4) and Skillwires with Active Softs (4) for Pistols/Automatics/Longarms.

--

As to the OP's question.

Without the context of what you want your character to do, my instinct to save points is to go straight longarms or straight automatics. If you're dead set on getting pistols with longarms then I would do 1 rank with a specialization rather than 2 ranks. That's a benefit of +4 dice over defaulting and you save 2 karma over going with automatics 5.

Pistol 1 (Spec) + Longarms 4 (Spec) = 32 Karma
Automatics 5 (Spec) = 34 Karma

[Elfenlied]

The character in question is hacker/rigger, who is in need of a weapon skill for those missions where she needs to run in the meat. She's a secondary combatant.

[StealthSigma]

The character in question is hacker/rigger, who is in need of a weapon skill for those missions where she needs to run in the meat. She's a secondary combatant.

My suggestion is take Throwing Weapons 4 and specialize in pistols*.

* This is an internal joke with my group's hacker who had a pistol with bad agility and no pistol skill.

--

Serious responses.

If you're going on runs in the meat, why is concealment a desired trait? You're in a location you shouldn't be in. If you've been spotted concealment doesn't matter. Concealment is a trait when you're moving in places you could be in and are trying to hide a weapon you shouldn't have or when you're hiding a weapon on your person while engaged in social engineering. I'm not sure if either of those situations apply to your need for a weapon.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget to go find the last thread about this exact question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still say Automatics. It's one skill.

[squee_nabob]

I'd suggest either automatics or pistols + heavy weapons. Heavy weapons are much like longarms but better in terms of firepower, and a pistol with stick n shock is pretty good for a sidearm. If you were to go automatics, you'd want:

Machine Pistol,
either SMG or AR depending on your recoil compensation. Do you have a gyromount in a cyberarm? if yes, you can go SMG, otherwise go AR. Either way pick up the speciality guns like the executive predator (it is a briefcase with an SMG in it). You can also get guns like the ingram smartgun X which has a built in suppressor and is only restricted if you want, or the ingram mach 100 (high velocity at a reasonable price).

For Pistols + Heavy Weapons:
Burst firing pistol. Several of these exist.
AK-98, cammo coated, reduced barrel for your grenade launcher
add missiles, rockets, or assault cannons as needed. I am personally not a big fan of HMGs, but you may differ.
If you are abusing MRSI (i.e. using) software, grab an automatic grenade launcher and that solves all your problems.

[CanRay]

HMGs have their place, But Shadowruns have to be mobile, so they're not usually on Shadowruns.

Of course, there are some groups that swear by Mortars...

[Hida Tsuzua]

I would recommend either Automatics or Pistols + Heavy Weapons due to the dominance of burst fire and especially automatic fire in SR. It isn't too hard to get at least 5 RC on an automatic (Gas Vent 3 + Personalized Grip/sling + innate/stock) so you can do two burst fire shots. Since you're using SnS (who doesn't?), that's 8S -1/2 AP damage which is on par with most longarms. If you can get more recoil compensation (arm gyromount or extra mods), you can do long burst + short burst FA for 11S and 8S -1/2 AP which is even better. With work you can do HV, that's 11S and 11S -1/2AP. If you have trouble hitting, you can switch from narrow to wide bursts to decrease the target's dodge pool. There are a few pistols that can do burst fire, but they typically can't do full auto or have great problems getting enough recoil compensation due to limited modification and accessories choices.

Automatics are fairly concealable so you have your damage and your concealment too. With Chameleon Coating and concealable holster, that's -5 to spot. Since an automatic pistol has a +2 base and a SMG has a +4 base, you can easily reach default light or heavy pistol concealability. While pistols obviously can go much lower, this should be more than "good enough". Otherwise, you couldn't just have a heavy pistol in a concealable holster. If they are using MAD or cyberware scanners, you're in equal trouble pistol or assault rifle so that doesn't matter. There's also the Executive Protector which is a SMG disguised as a briefcase which is quite handy.

Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2. In addition, this covers fairly expensive and illegal Barrett 121 versus a fairly easy to get, legal, and cheaper AK-97. If you're using SnS, then skill is what really matters not DV since you can force that Hussar or LAV to shut down with a good enough shot.

If you remove SnS (which while sober I agree is a valid opinion), things become a bit murkier. SnS is the great equalizer in damage codes and without it base damage matters which hinders the "my heavy combat gun is my conceal gun" appeal that Automatics has. I'll cover the Pistol + Heavy Weapons combo and its appeal in a later post.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't forget to go find the last thread about this exact question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still say Automatics. It's one skill.

Automatics is a Good One, no doubt. After all, Anything a Pistol can do a Machine Pistol can do too (except for the Concealability) ... Same for Assault Rifles and Rifles.

[Mäx]

Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2.

Except that nothing stops the barret user from calling a shot for that same +4 to DV.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Longarms have an easier time getting though hardened armor. However, this advantage is much smaller than it seems. The Barrett can affect hardened armor up to 6 points higher than an AK-97. However, the AK user can switch to wide burst and call shot for +4 DV and that narrows the gap to merely 2.

Dubious, at best. The combined rationale of Spraying and praying (Wide Burst to reduce their ability to react) and Calling a Shot (for better accuracy) is a bit ludicrous, don't you think? It would never fly at our table.

[KCKitsune]

I would enter Heavy weapons into the count though.

- Pistol-Like anti-personal (Grenade pistol)

This.

Also a grenade launcher is multipurpose. You need to knock a group of people out (but can't use a stunball), use narcojet gas grenades. You need to take out that drone, use a HE grenade. You want to take care of a bunch of beasties, use a frag grenade.

All this in a small package. You just have to carry the clips for it.

[CanRay]

Neruostun. Narcojet is an injection chemical. Of course, mixing with DMSO is a good idea.

The flipside is that ammo for grenade launchers is really bloody expensive, and not as easy to get. You can't just skip into the local Stuffer Shack to pick up some boxes of 40mm Grenades like you can .45 ACCP for your Colt Cobra.

Or, if you're lucky, the drive-thru. "I'm two blocks away, I want a pair of SoySloppies with extra relish, three Q-Cola TrollGulps, and a box of 10mm Caseless. You guys want anything?"

[Epicedion]

Buy Firearms group. The first thing you can do once you start earning Karma is buy specializations. This is of course assuming that you're playing a game that isn't all running all the time. You need that Pistols skill whenever you have to go out in public.

As for the "what's the most versatile," my answer is Automatics. It covers everything from machine pistols to assault rifles, and works for full auto as well as single shots.

[CanRay]

The most versatile weapon my group has found is the Metahuman Body.

Especially if you bring your own Dwarf trained in unarmed combat.

[Epicedion]

The most versatile weapon my group has found is the Metahuman Body.

Especially if you bring your own Dwarf trained in unarmed combat.

Or a Dwarf with a pointy helmet for the Troll to use with his Thrown Weapons skill.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Except that nothing stops the barret user from calling a shot for that same +4 to DV.

While true, there is the -4 to hit that the automatics can trivially compensate for. The end result is the same, there's a narrow band of armor values where sniper rifles can hurt that automatics can't. However, you rapidly get beyond both firearm's penetration values so it doesn't matter which you use. If you're below that range, automatics do more damage due to how automatic fire works. So longarms are better at a subset of a subset of targets (trying to destroy vehicles with armor scores between X and Y). There's also the wide full auto burst, called shot to bypass armor, longshot test that lets you just blow away a panzer too even with otherwise meager edge scores (which would be harder for a longarm to do since it can't reduce the defense test of the target). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Dubious, at best. The combined rationale of Spraying and praying (Wide Burst to reduce their ability to react) and Calling a Shot (for better accuracy) is a bit ludicrous, don't you think? It would never fly at our table.

I've always assumed it's firing in a cone in the area of the called shot. You're not expecting every bullet to hit that spot, just one even if the target moves or your first shot is off. Also a wide burst isn't spraying and praying. Skill still matters and can allow for more damage. It's merely not going for as tight a grouping.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've always assumed it's firing in a cone in the area of the called shot. You're not expecting every bullet to hit that spot, just one even if the target moves or your first shot is off. Also a wide burst isn't spraying and praying. Skill still matters and can allow for more damage. It's merely not going for as tight a grouping.

Bad assumption. Wide Burst are automatic weapons fire. If you are using "Wide" there is no semblance of Grouping at all. Try it sometime. If you are Aiming, you are not firing Wide.

[Belvidere]

Or a Dwarf with a pointy helmet for the Troll to use with his Thrown Weapons skill.

Or a Troll with a pointy hat and your dwarf adept throwing friend.

Remember kids, metahuman bodies do (body/2)S

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

What about Gunnery instead? If you are a Hacker/Rigger, then maybe you can run a drone to do your shooting for you?

[Yerameyahu]

That hardly counts, but I think it was an option on the poll in the last version of this exact thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)