Adopting "atrib + skill" roll (ditching dice pools), Has someone tested it ? Options

[silva]

Has someone played 3rd edition adopting the atrib + skill roll of 4th edition, and eliminating the dice pools (combat/hacking/magic/rigging) completely?

This seems an interesting option for making the 3E system a bit more agile, but I dont know what consequences it could have.

What do you guys (and girls) think ?

[Glyph]

It could end up kind of overpowered compared to SR4, because in SR3, Attributes are a lot easier to boost, skills are not capped, and specializations can give you a lot more than two extra dice. Not to mention that things like foci can also go a lot higher. So you will have some serious dice pool inflation.

You will also have to decide whether to keep SR3's TNs and TN modifiers (imagine a sammie firing 30 dice or so, at point blank range, with a TN of 2 - optimal case, sure, but it can come up), or whether to adopt SR4's fixed TNs, at which point, you almost might as well simply play SR4.

[Tiralee]

hmmmmmmmmmm...Nope.

Just running it through some of our less-uber characters meant 20-30 dice without specialisation. If you're going to spawn dice like that, you may as well adopt SR4 and forget pools.
Variable TN's makes it very horrible, more so with exploding dice.

Also, the whole Intuition/Logic seperation isn't really addressed when it comes to computer (Or basic INT-based skills)

The rigger stuff gets really weird, REALLY fast, as well.

-Tir

[Kagetenshi]

"Agile"? Could you clarify what this means in context?

Pools (most notably Combat Pool, but really all of them except usually Hacking Pool) are one of the, perhaps the single most inspired feature in the SR rules. They're not without their rough spots, but I'm not at all clear on why one would want to eliminate them, especially in favour of a static, choiceless system like attribute+skill.

~J

[Cheops]

Our group is finding more success with taking SR4 and modifying the shit out of it to kludge it back to being more like SR3. If you want to keep the attribute + skill dice pool but want a more SR3 feel then I suggest 1:1 dice pool modifier to threshold modifier. Forces everyone to really work the modifiers to their advantage -- just like in SR3 -- instead of the devil-may-care attitude of SR4.

[Epicedion]

I've actually given thought to patching Combat Pool (etc) back into SR4 and ditching the +Attribute system altogether.

This wouldn't really be that hard for combat and hacking and so on (an argument might start over which attributes to use where), but all of the non-combat systems in SR4 also rely on those extra Attribute dice. Without them, you'd start to have problems with people doing simple things like climbing over fences.

[Epicedion]

If you want to keep the attribute + skill dice pool but want a more SR3 feel then I suggest 1:1 dice pool modifier to threshold modifier. Forces everyone to really work the modifiers to their advantage -- just like in SR3 -- instead of the devil-may-care attitude of SR4.

Oh, this gets a little tricky. Say you're shooting with 1 uncompensated Recoil (-1) at a second target (-2) who's running (-2) at Medium range (-1). You're firing from cover (-2), but have a smartlink (+2).

Your DPM would be -6, so you'd need, 7 hits to meet the threshold.

If you have, say, Agility 5 and Firearms 5, which means you're pretty handy with a gun, this shot is pretty much impossible (actually just slightly less than 2%). Especially when the guy gets his chance to dodge. But if you're just modifying your dice pool down by -6, you have 4 dice left. The shot is definitely something you can do, though success isn't really a guarantee.

Remember that every +1 or -1 to a threshold is worth about 3 to 4 dice.

I might suggest keeping the regular dice pool modifiers and moving to the optional system of treating ranges as thresholds (p75, SR4A), but not replacing all DPMs with threshold modifiers.

[Stahlseele]

Well it would help with rigging.
Those TN's often came close to 20's needed <.<

[silva]

(for the rest of the discussion, when I mention “Combat Pool” please consider all kinds of pools of 3e: Hacking/Magic/Rigging/etc).


Thanks for the answers, guys.

So, if I got what you all said, the problem lies with the “cheap to increase” attributes and with the starting high value attribs from 3e char creation (priority system). I would need to tweak these values for this adaptation to work, right?

If the tweaking is made correctly, I cant see how dice inflation would occur (at least not more than what already occurs in 4e anyway ), since the Attribute dice would simply substitute the Combat Pool ones, with the added benefit of rolling less dice for resisting (since in 3e armor don’t add up more dice), and rolling less dice in general than 4e, since it would only be Attrib+Skill, instead of Attrib+Skill+Gear. In the end, it would simply swap a “dice pool” for another (Combat Pool for Attribute). And the system would get more agile because one don’t need to make tactical considerations about Combat Pool usage.

Is that right? Am I ignoring something here?

[Stahlseele]

In SR3, you can get a Starting Skill of 7 as a Mundane and i think 10 or 11 as an adept.
Troll Unarmed Combat. Skill 7 including Specialization+15 STR = 22 Dice
Granted, this is not as bad as the 44 Dice Pornomancer of 4th Ed . .
But seeing how you can get the Troll to need 2's to hit, it's pretty easy to Stage the Damage up to . . let's see . .
STR15+Bone-Lace=18+Hardliner Gloves=19. 19M Stun. And then 22 successes . . that's 22D and that's only 4 successes gone . . makes 18 successes left . . every second success adds one to damage . . 18/2=9+19=28D Stun . . not bad O.o
Yes, generally, it is harder to get huge starting dice pools for SR3. Technically, it is not limited by anything so they can get stronger than SR4 . .

Well, there WAS the one Wakyambi Elf With his scythe of Doom and 70? dice for attack . .

[Abstruse]

In SR3, you can get a Starting Skill of 7 as a Mundane and i think 10 or 11 as an adept.

Starting skill max was 6 unless you took an Advantage (Positive Quality in 4th).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Starting skill max was 6 unless you took an Advantage (Positive Quality in 4th).

And with said advantage, you could then specialize up to 9 Dice?

[Epicedion]

Specialization in SR3 worked differently. To specialize, you added one point to the base skill to get your specialization and then took away a point from the base skill to represent the skill in general.

So if you had Pistols 5 and wanted to specialize in Ares Predator, you would end up with Pistols (Ares Predator) 4 (6).

From then on they were treated as separate skills, except specializations were cheaper to increase than a regular skill. Your Pistols skill in that example would really be 4, not a modified 5. Your Ares Predator skill would really be 6.

Specialization was free at character generation. IIRC, if you wanted to specialize in-game, you'd pay the specialization improvement cost based on whatever your skill was, so in the example you'd pay to improve a specialization from 5 to 6 and end up with Pistols (Ares Predator) 5 (6), instead of gaining a point one way and losing one the other.

So if you bought that maxed out 7 skill rating, you could specialize to 6 ( 8 ). edit: putting an 8 in parentheses apparently gives you this: ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

That said, your skill was also soft-capped by its attribute. You could purchase the skill up to the attribute rating at normal improvement costs, but to increase it further you'd have to pay extra to surpass that cap. Otherwise you could pay to increase the attribute, which would raise your soft cap. There was another cap at twice the attribute rating, where it would cost even more to improve.

Karma costs for active skills were something like:
New rating <=Attribute: x1.5
Attribute < New Rating <= Twice Attribute: x2
>Attribute: x2.5

Specializations followed the same track, costing x0.5, x1, and x1.5.

Knowledge and Language skills cost slightly less.

My personal opinion is that SR3 was much tighter around the edges than SR4, especially with respect to skill/attribute ratings, specialization and improvement. SR3 was all about equitable trade-offs, while SR4 is much looser (and somewhat more adaptable) and rather about immediate benefits. Purchasing attribute ratings in SR3 involved vague benefits, like better skill improvement costs and small bonuses to various Pools, Reaction, and Initiative. They were long-term investments. In SR4, everything is direct, and based on one-for-one improvement.

SR3 had the problem of being very opaque and hard to get into, but there's a lot of purely golden stuff in there that should've been kept in for SR4 but didn't quite fit in with the basic dice systems.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, and have only 4 or 3 dice for all other non-specialized actions with that skill?

Well... this thread is interesting, so i am providing my opinion nobody wants.

I wouldn't change the raw mechanisms of third edition. At least not to a near-SR4 system. I have tried out dozens of games and even build a few myself and found that the mechanism AND the world should work in unison. If you change one you change the other. And i REALLY like the way SR3 felt (With some houseruling and some SR2 callbacks and such).

If you make it a attribute+skill roll you deny the gifted and studious ones to be the best for example (You need to be born an elf to be the best gunslinger again) You promote weird difficulties if you take out the variable TN. (The SR4-problem of just THROW MORE DICE at the problem instead of intelligently working on reducing the TN).

I am still holding the old rules in much higher regard as the totally weird and not thoroughly thought out mess the SR4 rules are. (Negative dice on rolls of OTHER people, with rolls where you don't want them to know what they are doing? - Perception for example)

And the dice pools were great for differentiating people with similar base skills and promote strategic thinking and risk/reward. It is a great metagame and show of individualism. (You don't want any mage with spellcast4 and will4 be the same now do you? (This allows them to say: I take the risk of more drain for mow POW, for example)

I would say: work a bit on restructing the vehicle rules, maybe hacking, but leave the base. Or play SR4. Restructing the base system WILL completely fuck up the "feel" of the game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Specialization in SR3 worked differently. To specialize, you added one point to the base skill to get your specialization and then took away a point from the base skill to represent the skill in general.

So if you had Pistols 5 and wanted to specialize in Ares Predator, you would end up with Pistols (Ares Predator) 4 (6).

....

My personal opinion is that SR3 was much tighter around the edges than SR4, especially with respect to skill/attribute ratings, specialization and improvement. SR3 was all about equitable trade-offs, while SR4 is much looser (and somewhat more adaptable) and rather about immediate benefits. Purchasing attribute ratings in SR3 involved vague benefits, like better skill improvement costs and small bonuses to various Pools, Reaction, and Initiative. They were long-term investments. In SR4, everything is direct, and based on one-for-one improvement.

SR3 had the problem of being very opaque and hard to get into, but there's a lot of purely golden stuff in there that should've been kept in for SR4 but didn't quite fit in with the basic dice systems.

I must have remembered 2nd Edition then. You could:
Have the Base Skill 6
Have a Concentration 5/7
or have a Specialization 4/6/8

Been a while since I playd either Edition. *shrug*

[Kagetenshi]

In SR3, you can get a Starting Skill of 7 as a Mundane and i think 10 or 11 as an adept.

12 dice as an Adept, potentially 18 depending on interpretation of how Improved Ability and Ambidexterity 6+ interact, but the max skill is still only 6 (or a 5(7) specialization). Important for things like pool use.

The exception is Otaku, who are required to have Computers at at least 6 and are permitted to have it as high as 8.

the system would get more agile because one don’t need to make tactical considerations about Combat Pool usage.

I must admit, I wasn't expecting you to come right out and say that.

~J

[BishopMcQ]

Let's make an example:

we'll say Pistols (Predator) 5/7 and Quickness 6(9) (Augmented Elf, that should be a cakewalk to hit). You'd be throwing 16 dice, against a base TN of 4. Presume 8 hits.

Because we are getting rid of pools, let's say that we default to either Reaction for the Dodge test (since Combat Pool is gone). Roll Reaction of 6, against a TN 4, get 3 hits.

That leaves 5 hits, so the Damage Code scales from 9(M) to 9(D). An Armor Jacket will lower the Soak test to a TN 4 (9 - 5 Ballistic), and the target will need 8 hits to resist. Let's presume a Body of 6, for 3 hits. That would scale the D to an S wound.

It gets a little tricky, since there aren't any Dodge skills in SR3, though they could be added easily enough. Likewise, Armor reduces the TN, so you are just rolling Body to soak damage. Rolling Body + Armor, after applying Armor to reduce the TN is a little odd. You could do Body + Body, but then the trolls are really going to start shaking off the damage.

My SR3 is rusty, so if you see something I fragged up let me know.

[Abstruse]

Let's make an example:

we'll say Pistols (Predator) 5/7 and Quickness 6(9) (Augmented Elf, that should be a cakewalk to hit). You'd be throwing 16 dice, against a base TN of 4. Presume 8 hits.

Because we are getting rid of pools, let's say that we default to either Reaction for the Dodge test (since Combat Pool is gone). Roll Reaction of 6, against a TN 4, get 3 hits.

That leaves 5 hits, so the Damage Code scales from 9(M) to 9(D). An Armor Jacket will lower the Soak test to a TN 4 (9 - 5 Ballistic), and the target will need 8 hits to resist. Let's presume a Body of 6, for 3 hits. That would scale the D to an S wound.

It gets a little tricky, since there aren't any Dodge skills in SR3, though they could be added easily enough. Likewise, Armor reduces the TN, so you are just rolling Body to soak damage. Rolling Body + Armor, after applying Armor to reduce the TN is a little odd. You could do Body + Body, but then the trolls are really going to start shaking off the damage.

My SR3 is rusty, so if you see something I fragged up let me know.

That's pretty close, but I've never once seen a firefight where there was a TN4 to hit. At least not after I was about 14 or so and learned the cover rules. No one's going to stand still in the open in the middle of a gunfight and I've never seen a single runner ever who didn't have a smartlink or a laser sight. As for Dodge, I'd say just have them roll Quickness. Fits since it was used for damn near everything else in SR2-3 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Epicedion]

Reaction scores can be way too high in SR3 to allow a straight Reaction roll to dodge. The Street Samurai archetype in the main book has a Reaction of 11, and dodge rolls start at TN 4. This means you're likely to get 5 successes or so, which is probably twice or more what even a good shooter will get, barring very unfortunate circumstances.

[longbowrocks]

It could end up kind of overpowered compared to SR4, because in SR3, Attributes are a lot easier to boost, skills are not capped, and specializations can give you a lot more than two extra dice. Not to mention that things like foci can also go a lot higher. So you will have some serious dice pool inflation.

You will also have to decide whether to keep SR3's TNs and TN modifiers (imagine a sammie firing 30 dice or so, at point blank range, with a TN of 2 - optimal case, sure, but it can come up), or whether to adopt SR4's fixed TNs, at which point, you almost might as well simply play SR4.

I don't really know how SR3 works, but if skills aren't capped and it's easier to boost attributes, why is 30 dice impressive for a Sammie? You can do that in SR4 already.

[Tiralee]

No Dodge skill? Wtf? Someone's forgotten the infamous mantra of, "Roll to hit/GM will roll to dodge"?

Everyone got to dodge, unless under pretty specific circumstances (ie: if unconcious) Hell, even a deep-diving console cowboy hotdogging decker could, abet with a +8 TN (at a bare minimum)

The whole "Quickeness = insta win) thing was addressed waaay too many times, ie: My quickness 12 elf is running up a street while people shoot at him, can he survive? General consensus, "Survive? That's how we live!"

You could enhance TNs by cover, acrobatics, stealth, etc, but quickness was king.

-Tir

[Link]

The attributes plus skill system seems more akin to earlier editions of SR where pool dice refreshed on your action. Where attributes were the main constituent of a pool you could effectively add your attribute to your skill for every test.

Also, there was dodging in SR3 but no skill as such.

[Epicedion]

I don't really know how SR3 works, but if skills aren't capped and it's easier to boost attributes, why is 30 dice impressive for a Sammie? You can do that in SR4 already.

15 dice in SR3 is "a crap-ton of dice" and almost always involves using most or all of one of your pools. And being ridiculously awesome.

A starting character is going to have about 6 skill and about 7 Combat Pool, and getting much higher is difficult. Especially since cyberware to upgrade your Combat Pool attributes is fairly hard to come by in SR3.

[Stahlseele]

Because you used COMBAT POOL for the Dodge Roll.
Combat Pool is dependent on not one, not two, but 3 attributes.
Quickness, Intelligence and Willpower.
A Human with 6/6/6 in these Attributes would have a Combat Pool of 9.
And he can use these dice to either dodge or to enhance his own attacks.
And pools refreshed at the start of the next initiative round.
So if you got to go 3 times in one initiative round, you effectively had to split the combat pool by 3.
Or use it all up in one go or something highly unlikely.
And yes, 15 Dice is HUGE in SR3.
Usually, you'd see more along the lines of 8-10 Dice. Most Starting characters would be rolling 4 to 6 dice for any given task.
And pools only are useable, if you have one success with your normal skill roll first. And you can only use as many pool dice as you have rank in a given skill.
So even if you have 9 combat pool dice, if your shoot stuff skill is at 4, you can only ever use 4 combat pool dice to augment your shooting stuff.
And that only, if you managed to get one success with the 4 dice roll first. Which can be pretty hard, when the TN's go up to 11 or so . .

[Epicedion]

That's ultimately how the street sam would get you. He'd just leisurely roll his 6 skill dice at you 8 times in one combat turn. You've only got 7 or 8 dice to dodge with, and once you use them, they're gone.