[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I own the books for Shadowrun.

Okay, that answers that question... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ggodo]

It's an actual coffin, not a coffin hotel, haha. And I was going to give them temporary amnesia from some sort of knockout drug. It's raining really heavily, they can hear some voices over the sound of someone digging down to them and their casket is slowly filling with rainwater. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, as far as the PC nerfing, it's not for power reasons. I want a setting where magic and metatypes are rare and cyberware isn't super-widely available or affordable. I'm just not following all of the pre-written fluff. My players enjoy a gritty game, also. Think Kane & Lynch more than GitS.

Great opening scene, I'm not sure you want to compare anything to Kane and Lynch. That franchise is one of the worst things ever produced. I'd say Karmagen and some free cyber.

[Audious]

Great opening scene, I'm not sure you want to compare anything to Kane and Lynch. That franchise is one of the worst things ever produced. I'd say Karmagen and some free cyber.

Kane and Lynch is the epitome of games that could've been so good. The second one, especially.

Thank you, though.

(They're being dug up by organleggers)

[TheOOB]

No gear, no magic? Eh, 300.

300 BP, your incapable of creating an average human(3's in all attributes), but you can still start with a 5 in agility and a 6 in automatics with little trouble.

[Tyro]

300 BP, your incapable of creating an average human(3's in all attributes), but you can still start with a 5 in agility and a 6 in automatics with little trouble.

Exactly. Again, I vote Karmagen. SO much better. If you don't like all the math, us DK's Upgraded Character Generator from the Community Projects section. It's a comprehensive Excel/Open Office spreadsheet which supports just about everything the game has to offer; I've been using it since early beta (something like 2 years ago plus), and it's gotten fairly frequent updates since then.

[Epicedion]

Priority system! You can assign limits to Magic, Race, and Resources if you want to restrict certain choices.

[Tyro]

Priority system! You can assign limits to Magic, Race, and Resources if you want to restrict certain choices.

Blech. Priority system still raises attributes and skills like BP does. Most of the same issues apply.

[TheOOB]

The priority system is just like the BP system, but for some reason is assumes that not everyone is going to spend at or near their cap on attributes.

[TheOOB]

The priority system is just like the BP system, but for some reason is assumes that not everyone is going to spend at or near their cap on attributes.

[Rasumichin]

Why not just switch to CyberPunk 2020 Then? Just Curious, as it removes the craziness of Metatypes and Magic.

And replaces it with the crazyness that is known as THE POWER OF ROCK.

[Medicineman]

Why not just switch to CyberPunk 2020 Then? Just Curious, as it removes the craziness of Metatypes and Magic. Seems like it would be a better fit, in my opinion.

I had the same thought
Or maybe GURPS Cyberpunk(You could add Magic, Psionics and/or Metatypes later If you want to) ?
Playing SR without Metatypes and Magic is ,ike ....playing Fantasy RPG without Clerics ,Divine Magic and Gods...
not very Fun-promising in my Eye, but hey its your Game

Hough!
Medicineman

[Audious]

I had the same thought
Or maybe GURPS Cyberpunk(You could add Magic, Psionics and/or Metatypes later If you want to) ?
Playing SR without Metatypes and Magic is ,ike ....playing Fantasy RPG without Clerics ,Divine Magic and Gods...
not very Fun-promising in my Eye, but hey its your Game

Hough!
Medicineman

Roommate's doing Pathfinder that way and it's a ton of fun. Like I said, I have the books for Shadowrun and don't intend to learn a brand new system when I can just slightly modify this one and have the same effect.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And replaces it with the crazyness that is known as THE POWER OF ROCK.

The Power of Rock is awesome. I like CP2020 in some ways, and not in other ways. But the Power of Rock is definitely a bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Rasumichin]

I had the same thought
Or maybe GURPS Cyberpunk(You could add Magic, Psionics and/or Metatypes later If you want to) ?
Playing SR without Metatypes and Magic is ,ike ....playing Fantasy RPG without Clerics ,Divine Magic and Gods...
not very Fun-promising in my Eye, but hey its your Game

Hough!
Medicineman

I'd use SR4 rules for about any near-future setting.
They work at least decently and it's the rules set i'm most familiar with, so why not stick to it in other settings as well?
If everyone in the group wanted a classic cyberpunk campaign and was familiar with SR more than with other RPGs, why would you bother to switch to another system?
It would be less work to write houserules for THE POWER OF ROCK (or anything about how to use the Artisan skill at all) then to learn some clunky early 90s RPG rules.

The things you'd want to remove in other settings are usually entire modules such as magic, technomancy or 'ware, removing them is merely as much work as saying "look, we're playing a one-shot based on Strange Days, so please make mundane, human characters without 'ware and without any matrix technology that doesn't use minidiscs as a storage medium."

Yes, it would be a bit harder to differentiate the characters as far as abilities go, but there's still enough mundane qualities and underused skills for that.

[Medicineman]

I am Lucky in knowing a lot of different RPGs (and playing them)
So I perceive such Issues from the perspective that there are some other RPG that better suit a different Taste
And If one of my Groups tells me (f.E.)" we want to play Dark Dystopy without Magic or Metas" I grab Cyberpunk. If its with Monster & Horror it could be Dark Conspiracy or Cthulhu Punk. if Its only with Vampires its Vampire in Chrome,etc
Sometimes I forget that other Groups don't have that broad experience with RPG.
And Yes Its a valid Argument that its easier to stick to the RPG you know and simply edit out the Aspects You don't like (like Shadowrun without Magic or Metas) than starting a whole new RPG
But it is also valid that there are other RPGS that are better suited for certain Kinds of Gamestyles

with a broad Dance
Medicineman

[Seerow]

I am Lucky in knowing a lot of different RPGs (and playing them)
So I perceive such Issues from the perspective that there are some other RPG that better suit a different Taste
And If one of my Groups tells me (f.E.)" we want to play Dark Dystopy without Magic or Metas" I grab Cyberpunk. If its with Monster & Horror it could be Dark Conspiracy or Cthulhu Punk. if Its only with Vampires its Vampire in Chrome,etc
Sometimes I forget that other Groups don't have that broad experience with RPG.
And Yes Its a valid Argument that its easier to stick to the RPG you know and simply edit out the Aspects You don't like (like Shadowrun without Magic or Metas) than starting a whole new RPG
But it is also valid that there are other RPGS that are better suited for certain Kinds of Gamestyles

with a broad Dance
Medicineman

Honestly though, what do any of those systems bring to the table that shadowrun without Magic/Metas doesn't? I mean, you can run a perfectly legit group of mundane humans even in the shadowrun world. If the other systems do something straight up better, then sure, use it. But Shadowrun's system works, and a fair bit better than many other systems out there. For example I'd take a modified shadowrun over say D20 Modern or GURPS any day of the week. I've never played Cyberpunk 2020 but I've heard mixed things about it. If I were to look for a non-magic cyberpunk style game, I'd probably similarly turn to Shadowrun.

Now if Shadowrun were a more eberron-esque setting where magic and technology were frequently mixed, and taking out the magic makes technology no longer make sense, then there would be a problem. But as it is, Magic is so compartmentalized you can remove it from the game completely, and anyone who didn't expect it to be there wouldn't notice anything wrong. Which to me makes it a good option.


Now, if the guy were trying to mod shadowrun for a high fantasy setting, and trying to take out all of the tech and cyber/bioware, then there would be a indication that he should really just look for a different system.

[Medicineman]

Honestly though, what do any of those systems bring to the table that shadowrun without Magic/Metas doesn't? I mean, you can run a perfectly legit group of mundane humans even in the shadowrun world.

Its the Background and Fluff that gets Broken
Shure, from a pure Crunch perspective You can simply omit all the Rules concerning Magic or Metas
but If You plan to start a longer Campaign with a "working Background and believiable environment " its quite strenious if not Impossible

But Shadowrun's system works, and a fair bit better than many other systems out there.

Yes It Is and Yes it does (I Nod friendly) Its one of my favorite RPGs,no doubt about that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

I've never played Cyberpunk 2020 but I've heard mixed things about it.

I played it half a Year ago ImO its inferior to SR4A Ruleswise and lacks much of the Flavor SR has

But as it is, Magic is so compartmentalized you can remove it from the game completely, and anyone who didn't expect it to be there wouldn't notice anything wrong.

You would have to totally rewrite History.
There would be no NAN,no CAS/UCAS ,no Horrors, no Connection to Earthdawn, no Immortal Elves, no Dunkelzahn for President, (No Drakes at all) No Megacorps (Saeder Krupp without Loffy ? How ? Impossible !) or different Megas,etc,etc

Now, if the guy were trying to mod shadowrun for a high fantasy setting, and trying to take out all of the tech and cyber/bioware, then there would be a indication that he should really just look for a different system.

I totally agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
but ImO its the same without Magic

He who dances with Tech & Magic
Medicineman

[Rasumichin]

Its the Background and Fluff that gets Broken
Shure, from a pure Crunch perspective You can simply omit all the Rules concerning Magic or Metas
but If You plan to start a longer Campaign with a "working Background and believiable environment " its quite strenious if not Impossible

Writing a good setting isn't particularly hard. In fact, it's much easier than coming up with working rules.
Simply adapting an existing setting is even easier.
Just think about all those threads here that we had about building characters from GitS- that setting would work perfectly fine under SR4 rules minus the magic.

I've aso mused about alternate versions of the standard SR setting (recently thinking about how the world would look like if timelines hadn't split in the 90s, but would only start to diverge after the awakening- i'll make sure to start a thread on the subject when December comes around).

One could even write a cyberfantasy setting for SR4 rules that has nothing to do with the SR fluff at all and i could see it working out perfectly fine - SR does have an elaborate setting with a long-running metaplot, but unlike other setting- and metaplot-heavy systems such as WoD or TDE, there is little connection between setting and rules.
There's few elements that are rooted so deeply in the fluff that they wouldn't make sense in another setting.

SR never made the effort to portray itself as a setting-agnostic system like D&D, but for a lot of games, it would work fine as such.

[Seerow]

Its the Background and Fluff that gets Broken
Shure, from a pure Crunch perspective You can simply omit all the Rules concerning Magic or Metas
but If You plan to start a longer Campaign with a "working Background and believiable environment " its quite strenious if not Impossible


Yes It Is and Yes it does (I Nod friendly) Its one of my favorite RPGs,no doubt about that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )


I played it half a Year ago ImO its inferior to SR4A Ruleswise and lacks much of the Flavor SR has


You would have to totally rewrite History.
There would be no NAN,no CAS/UCAS ,no Horrors, no Connection to Earthdawn, no Immortal Elves, no Dunkelzahn for President, (No Drakes at all) No Megacorps (Saeder Krupp without Loffy ? How ? Impossible !) or different Megas,etc,etc


I totally agree (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
but ImO its the same without Magic

He who dances with Tech & Magic
Medicineman

Like Rasumichin said, you're mixing up Shadowrun the setting with Shadowrun the system. Yes the corps and the political landscape will be different, you might even end up playing in a system without any megacorps, and not be shadowrunning at all. But the point is the Shadowrun system still works for that. Not everyone who plays Shadowrun needs to play in the Shadowrun world. While the system does assume this is the case, the system itself is flexible and generic enough that it doesn't need to be true.

Honestly, the only reason I said that a low tech high fantasy setting wouldn't work is because there is so little you can spend wealth on in a setting like that. In such a setting a mundane character wouldn't be able to survive. Then again, a bunch of adepts and magicians could make it all right even with a limitation like that so it's not totally impossible.. just other systems do that style of setting better.

[Audious]

You know how you handle the history changing and not rewriting the entire thing? Answer questions as they come up.

[Medicineman]

Like Rasumichin said, you're mixing up Shadowrun the setting with Shadowrun the system.

Neither do I think that Rasumichin said that nor that I'm mixing it.
I (both of Us) know the difference between Fluff & Crunch

Hough !
Medicineman

[Caadium]

Cyberware is what really makes characters effective, so limiting the availability, and how much they can spend on it, will give you the appropriately gritty characters.

Dropping availability can dramatically change not only augmentations, but also basic gear.

I would say that instead of limiting how much they can spend on augmentations, I'd consider lowering the bp they are allowed to spend on nuyen. This keeps someone from going for limited cyber, but overloading on weapons, commlinks, vehicles, etc. It also forces the characters to spend more on things like contacts, skills, and qualities.

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

I, for one, agree with Medicineman.

I love playing Shadowrun, and have played it since 2nd edition days. However, the setting is probably 90% of the reason I like it. In SR4, it seems every time we play, we find something else that doesn't make sense, and we need to come up with house rules to get around the technical problems with the RAW.

It seems to me that dropping Magic, Metatypes, Cyber and Equipment... you are just left with a list of skills, attribs and a bunch of poorly worded rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, there would be several other systems I would rather use, but it's hard to trump the OP's assertion that he owns the SR4 books already, and not others. Still, if you've cut everything out, what do you really need the books for? Maybe to tell you everyone instantly dies in every car crash? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Why not just switch to CyberPunk 2020 Then? Just Curious, as it removes the craziness of Metatypes and Magic. Seems like it would be a better fit, in my opinion.

I encountered no obvious quirks when playing Shadowrun with magic and metatypes completely eviscerated from the system.

Aside from the obvious "I have the books for Shadowrun and not Cyberpunk" some of the less obvious reasons are the fluff. Now that may not make sense to a lot of people who will shout out "But magic is part of the fluff!" Yes. It is. However, it's amazing how much of the fluff you can ignore the magic aspect to it with limited reworking of the fluff. Shadowrun provides a plethora of background material for a setting that you have to do mild conditioning to.

It is, in a sense, similar to the Forgotten Realms setting for Dungeons and Dragons. I hate most of the mechanics that are introduced specifically for Forgotten Realms because it is very high magic power setting, but it's one of the richest settings in D&D as far as lore goes to the point where I will almost always defer to the deities of Faerun whenever I need to bother with deities.

--

There would be no NAN,

Of course not, but it's not a huge loss to a more cyberpunk setting without magic.

no CAS/UCAS ,

There's no guarantee to that. Neither nation is really dependent upon magic to form. Economic or political differences could ignite a second civil war in the US that causes the split.

no Horrors, no Connection to Earthdawn, no Immortal Elves, no Dunkelzahn for President, (No Drakes at all)

Meh.

No Megacorps (Saeder Krupp without Loffy ? How ? Impossible !) or different Megas,etc,etc

Considering Loffy basically swindled some other lady out of significant portions of her shares for SK, SK without Loffy is more than possible.

--

Purists hate to consider how easy it is to make alterations to something they love and adore. The truth is that a lot of fluff for Shadowrun can be quickly errata'd to eradicate magic while retaining everything that doesn't have an existence due solely to magic.

[Audious]

I, for one, agree with Medicineman.

I love playing Shadowrun, and have played it since 2nd edition days. However, the setting is probably 90% of the reason I like it. In SR4, it seems every time we play, we find something else that doesn't make sense, and we need to come up with house rules to get around the technical problems with the RAW.

It seems to me that dropping Magic, Metatypes, Cyber and Equipment... you are just left with a list of skills, attribs and a bunch of poorly worded rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, there would be several other systems I would rather use, but it's hard to trump the OP's assertion that he owns the SR4 books already, and not others. Still, if you've cut everything out, what do you really need the books for? Maybe to tell you everyone instantly dies in every car crash? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hm... oh, I don't know, because when someone gets shot in the face in Shadowrun, they don't just lose 40 HP. There's already a ton of cyberware pre-written for me that works just fine for the setting I'm doing. Magic DOES exist in my setting, it's just not an option for the players.

Is this really that hard of a concept to get your heads around? I like the system. I want to use the system for a slightly different setting. The fact that everyone is getting all aspie about this blows my mind.