[X] My Assistant

[UmaroVI]

The way to be viable is to recognize that as a PC Free Spirit, you're going to be a cripple with 1 or 2 cheap tricks, and build around that. Don't try to fill the same role as a summoned spirit and don't try to have direct combat be your focus; even a crappy mage will be able to summon a spirit that can fight better than you, no matter what. Instead, decide what cheap trick you want to focus on, and put everything you can into being good at it.

An example is Voltron's Left Leg: Force 6 (55 bp), Edge 5 (30 BP), 65 bp on whatever, be a Possession free spirit, Aura Masking (3PP), Realistic Form (.5PP), extra Spirit Pact (1PP), do something amusing with the last .5PP, then the spirit pacts Friendship (pretty much required) and Drain. Have your bestest buddy be playing a foci-happy Possession tradition mage who picks up Channeling ASAP, make the Drain Resistance pact with him, then hang out inside him 24/7. This turns the two of you into a Voltron-esque supermage, but with Realistic Form and Aura Masking you just look like a mundane. You can also hide active foci and spells with Aura Masking which makes it even crazier. With your next PP, get the spirit pact Magic so the two of you can go super saiyan once a day, and then I think the next most hilarious thing is to pick up Power Pact and some power that combines in an amusing fashion with a different PCs abilities, like giving an unarmed combat adept Elemental Aura or giving a pornomancer Fear or Influence.

[Yerameyahu]

Possession is a powerful option, but you do basically lose the crazy teleporting effects.

[Epicedion]

You're not going to be a cripple. You're simply not going to be amazing at skills the way you might be if you made a metahuman. You can be above-average to good at a few things if you're careful, but most of the free spirit's power lies in its innate abilities:

Astral perception
Astral travel
Metaplanar travel
Flight
+1 IP
Hardened Armor
Free spirit powers for Edge
Magic

These things have to have a BP cost. I'd cost the astral travel and perception at 50 BP and throw on another 10 for the metaplanar travel, due to how unrestricted these things make your movement -- need to be in Paris? Poof. Want to bypass physical security? Poof. Flight is probably worth about 20 BP. A permanent +1 IP for a mage is probably another 10 BP. Natural hardened armor is probably worth 20 BP. The free spirit powers and magic are probably worth about 15 collectively, sort of like a combination aspected magician and mystic adept, with none of the drawbacks of having to lock up Magic points for powers.

Then all ten of your attributes (physical, mental, edge, force/magic) start at +1. That's worth 100 BP. So I'm up to 225 already.

Am I missing anything?

[CanRay]

Best part of being a Free Spirit?

Never having to go through Airport Security. I might suggest that to a player that had his character suffer the indignity of having a full-body cavity search by an Ork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[kzt]

As we've said, Free Spirits aren't anything like normal characters. They've got powers literally no one can get, and all kinds of innate advantages (including, I forgot to list earlier, no-penalty astral sight at all times).

And the free bonus of bouncing off every ward. I remember a player trying to use a character who had the dual-natured 'ability'. It's not really something you want. Materialization is the only really cool power they get by default.

The idea that they can't use AR only makes sense if they are ONLY seeing via astral sight. Which actually would be pretty cool, but would require someone who really had a good grasp on what astral sight was supposed to do writing a couple pages talking about it in detail, as to what you see, what you can't see, how should it be conveyed etc.

If a spirit can read a book they can use AR. As far as I can tell they can read a book.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't try to use logic on SR, you'll hurt yourself. It says they can't use AR, so they can't use AR. If anything, they *shouldn't* be able to read books; problem solved. And it's a hell of a trade, because astral sight is super-vision, better than thermal, low-light, ultrasound, etc. And never forget, it's not really 'sight', so it's even better.

Who cares about wards? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're a spirit, you *should* have to deal with astral barriers. Lord knows you get to ignore all the physical ones.

[Epicedion]

And the free bonus of bouncing off every ward.

Everyone else gets the free bonus of bouncing off concrete walls and not being immortal. Wah.

[Irion]

As a matter of fact, they do have normal sight. (Since they are able to get improvements for "normal" sight, like low light vision)
If I were to guess I think someone confused AR with the brain trode-net thing.
So they are able to read books. This is (RAW) out of question.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno if it logically follows that the ability to buy Low-Light means they already have normal sight. It *is* stupid, because Astral sight already beats low-light in all cases.

[Makki]

I dunno if it logically follows that the ability to buy Low-Light means they already have normal sight. It *is* stupid, because Astral sight already beats low-light in all cases.

only for seeing living things

[Yerameyahu]

And anything solid, but I just meant in numeric terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It *is* better at seeing through windows, I'll grant you that.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu

It *is* stupid, because Astral sight already beats low-light in all cases.

Thats just plain wrong. You can't even tell if somebody is naked with astral vision.
Nor are you able to read signs.
You can't distinguish between most inanimate objects etc.

[CanRay]

On the bright side, you can see how wicked awesome lusty that rave down the street is!

[Summerstorm]

Eh, like i said, all this wet my appetite for making a free spirit character. Fumbled around a bit, said to myself: Eh, to HELL with optimization and built this:
(Format likely messed up.)

[ Spoiler ]

The Spirit of Metal
Free Spirit: 250 BP, Power of Rock Tradition (Ex-Guardian spirit) – Possession, Int+Wil

Bod: 2
Str: 2
Rea: 2
Agi: 2
Log: 2
Int: 2 +1
Wil: 2 +1
Cha: 2 +1
+30
Force: 2 +4
Edge: 2 +4
Ini: Astral/Phys 6/5 3/2 IP
30+110

140+250=390
Qualities:
Inspired -5

Flaws:
Thrill Seeker +5
Compulsive +10 (Always do everything the most awesome, loudest and flashiest way, Never let efficiency come in the way of doing it the RIGHT way)
Astral Beacon +5
Distinctive Style +15 (Over-the-top awesome-speak. Prefers humanoid homunculous form of armored golem-proportions. If possible carries an massive armored electric guitar with him. Plugged into a small high-performance amp, also carried)
390-30=360

Powers (6PP):
Fear 1.5
Psychokinesis 0.5
Influence 2
Animal Control (Awesome and/or rad animals) 1
Spirit Pact (Magic) Free
Spirit Pact (Life) 1

Skills:
Active (36BP) Knowledge (15 free) :
Artisan 2/+2 Music 5
Sorcery 1 History of Metal 5
Counterspelling 1 English N
Unarmed 1 German 2
Perception 1 Swedish 2
Assensing 1 Clubs&Joints 1
Astral Combat 2
9*4=36
Equipment (4 BP=20k):
Plasteel Humonculous B+8, A-1, R+0, S+8, Ar(8/8), Str+7P 15.000
Bike-Racing Armor (with helmet) 5/9 700
PPP Systems: Leg/Arm Casings, Forarm, Shin, Vitals (+2/+4) 900
Electric Guitar & Amp & Pick ~3000

Contacts (0 BP)
No points left for Contacts... Ah well...

Combat stats:
In Humonculous Form:
Body: 10, Agi: 1, Rea: 2, Str 10, Log: 2, Int: 3, Wil: 3, Cha: 3
Armour: 15/21 + 12/12 hardened = 37/43 DR
Initiative: 5/2IP
Unarmed: 2, 9DV

Strong points: Crowd Control, Single-Target Domination, Mage-Support, Immunities, emergency-heal
Weak points: Astral combat, magical attacks, Melee, infiltration, social, B+ areas, technical
Defense 7/10, Attack: 1/10 (more if dangerous animals are available), Awesomeness: 8/10, Potential: 1/10 (if Pro), 6/10 (if Pink Mohawk), Optimization: 3/10

Building up: gathering Karma with Pacts and as gifts, raising all attributes to acceptable levels, raising casting, counterspelling etc., learning spells. After that: Initiation+magic/edge enhancements for more raw power.

Is it "good"? HELL no. Would it be wicked fun. Yupp. I think it is possible to make a viable character EVEN under the normal rules. But you are likely have a one-trick pony, or a "nothing special". But OH the potential. Also it is always fun roleplaying something utterly alien.

Ah well, if the second SR-group with my players starts... and it seems like a more punkier version... i might play this weird thingy.

[CanRay]

\m/ O \m/

[Irion]

Well, the main problem with a free spirit in the BP system is, that there is stuff, which is much cheep in char gen, than with karma. I guess this is the reason most people think free spirits are underpowered, since they are not able to get those things.
Attribute to 5:
Chargen 40 BP (equals 80 Karma at best)
Karma 70 Karma

Skill to 6:
BP: 4*6= 24
Karma: = 44

So if you do not go the most effient way with your Karma (so to speak only soccery group 4, Force 6 and Edge/Willpower 5) the BP you are left with tend to brurn down to about 240 Karma equivalent. So 150 BP burns downt to 240 Karma.
This is as you would be building a human (from ground up) with around 640 Karma (including the Attribute*5 part)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the main problem with a free spirit in the BP system is, that there is stuff, which is much cheep in char gen, than with karma. I guess this is the reason most people think free spirits are underpowered, since they are not able to get those things.
Attribute to 5:
Chargen 40 BP (equals 80 Karma at best)
Karma 70 Karma

Skill to 6:
BP: 4*6= 24
Karma: = 44

So if you do not go the most effient way with your Karma (so to speak only soccery group 4, Force 6 and Edge/Willpower 5) the BP you are left with tend to brurn down to about 240 Karma equivalent. So 150 BP burns downt to 240 Karma.
This is as you would be building a human (from ground up) with around 640 Karma (including the Attribute*5 part)

But this applies to any character, not just Free Spirits. You have to make tradeoffs when you design a character. BP reinforces that concept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Makki]

that's why I wonder, why people still use BP system after 3 (?) years of RC. They should have started with karmagen in the core book from the beginning. The math is really not harder or taking longer.

[fazzamar]

Eh, like i said, all this wet my appetite for making a free spirit character. Fumbled around a bit, said to myself: Eh, to HELL with optimization and built this:
(Format likely messed up.)

[ Spoiler ]

The Spirit of Metal
Free Spirit: 250 BP, Power of Rock Tradition (Ex-Guardian spirit) – Possession, Int+Wil

Bod: 2
Str: 2
Rea: 2
Agi: 2
Log: 2
Int: 2 +1
Wil: 2 +1
Cha: 2 +1
+30
Force: 2 +4
Edge: 2 +4
Ini: Astral/Phys 6/5 3/2 IP
30+110

140+250=390
Qualities:
Inspired -5

Flaws:
Thrill Seeker +5
Compulsive +10 (Always do everything the most awesome, loudest and flashiest way, Never let efficiency come in the way of doing it the RIGHT way)
Astral Beacon +5
Distinctive Style +15 (Over-the-top awesome-speak. Prefers humanoid homunculous form of armored golem-proportions. If possible carries an massive armored electric guitar with him. Plugged into a small high-performance amp, also carried)
390-30=360

Powers (6PP):
Fear 1.5
Psychokinesis 0.5
Influence 2
Animal Control (Awesome and/or rad animals) 1
Spirit Pact (Magic) Free
Spirit Pact (Life) 1

Skills:
Active (36BP) Knowledge (15 free) :
Artisan 2/+2 Music 5
Sorcery 1 History of Metal 5
Counterspelling 1 English N
Unarmed 1 German 2
Perception 1 Swedish 2
Assensing 1 Clubs&Joints 1
Astral Combat 2
9*4=36
Equipment (4 BP=20k):
Plasteel Humonculous B+8, A-1, R+0, S+8, Ar(8/8), Str+7P 15.000
Bike-Racing Armor (with helmet) 5/9 700
PPP Systems: Leg/Arm Casings, Forarm, Shin, Vitals (+2/+4) 900
Electric Guitar & Amp & Pick ~3000

Contacts (0 BP)
No points left for Contacts... Ah well...

Combat stats:
In Humonculous Form:
Body: 10, Agi: 1, Rea: 2, Str 10, Log: 2, Int: 3, Wil: 3, Cha: 3
Armour: 15/21 + 12/12 hardened = 37/43 DR
Initiative: 5/2IP
Unarmed: 2, 9DV

Strong points: Crowd Control, Single-Target Domination, Mage-Support, Immunities, emergency-heal
Weak points: Astral combat, magical attacks, Melee, infiltration, social, B+ areas, technical
Defense 7/10, Attack: 1/10 (more if dangerous animals are available), Awesomeness: 8/10, Potential: 1/10 (if Pro), 6/10 (if Pink Mohawk), Optimization: 3/10

Building up: gathering Karma with Pacts and as gifts, raising all attributes to acceptable levels, raising casting, counterspelling etc., learning spells. After that: Initiation+magic/edge enhancements for more raw power.

Is it "good"? HELL no. Would it be wicked fun. Yupp. I think it is possible to make a viable character EVEN under the normal rules. But you are likely have a one-trick pony, or a "nothing special". But OH the potential. Also it is always fun roleplaying something utterly alien.

Ah well, if the second SR-group with my players starts... and it seems like a more punkier version... i might play this weird thingy.

Very Pink Mohawk and very cool.

[Epicedion]

that's why I wonder, why people still use BP system after 3 (?) years of RC. They should have started with karmagen in the core book from the beginning. The math is really not harder or taking longer.

They really should've stuck with the Priority system for the main book, and let Karma character generation be the advanced system.

With Priority, for a free spirit, you could say that the Free Spirit type would cost priority A or B (for +2 or +0 special attribute points, respectively), and be forced to take the Magician quality at A or B to determine your Force and spells known (A = Force 5, B = Force 3). Then you'd be left with C, D, and E for Attributes, Skills, and Resources. Keep the racial minimum of 2 for all attributes.

They say in RC that free spirits are "not compatible" with priority generation, and it might require a few tweaks to stay balanced (I'd probably make Magic A = Force 4 and Magic B = Force 2, and maybe remove the ability to buy Skill Groups in character generation), but I think you could end up with a slightly more flexible character without going too far out of balance with everything else.

[Fortinbras]

that's why I wonder, why people still use BP system after 3 (?) years of RC. They should have started with karmagen in the core book from the beginning. The math is really not harder or taking longer.

I prefer the BP system for new players. Karmagen is much preferred by folks who want to play Free Spirits, Vampires and Dragons without having to pay for it. The sort of people who bemoan the fact that their Free Spirit doesn't have a better dice pool than mages.

[Makki]

I prefer the BP system for new players. Karmagen is much preferred by folks who want to play Free Spirits, Vampires and Dragons without having to pay for it. The sort of people who bemoan the fact that their Free Spirit doesn't have a better dice pool than mages.

well, with the correct errata at hand, you have to pay for them. Karmagen is also preferred by most other players once they tried. and GMs. No min-max chars. what a wonderful day.

[fazzamar]

well, with the correct errata at hand, you have to pay for them. Karmagen is also preferred by most other players once they tried. and GMs. No min-max chars. what a wonderful day.

What errata would that be?

[Makki]

What errata would that be?

the one published in the german books and CGL is withholding from their US customers. it can easily be found in tens of threads on this forum.

[fazzamar]

the one published in the german books and CGL is withholding from their US customers. it can easily be found in tens of threads on this forum.

Grazie