[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Irion, I can't imagine why you'd ever want to do any of those things.

[Fortinbras]

well, with the correct errata at hand, you have to pay for them. Karmagen is also preferred by most other players once they tried. and GMs. No min-max chars. what a wonderful day.

None of my players are so into Shadowrun that they scour Dumpshock for German errata. Some of the time they're not a 100% on how many dice they roll to shoot things. For them, the BP system is faster and simpler and allows them to specialize without min-maxing. I'm big on new player inclusion.
You asked why people still use it, and that is why. I'm sure your players own all the books and know the rules really well, but my players just want to show up and shoot things. For their sake I like to keep things simple, and BP does that easier than karmagen.

I've nothing against karmagen per se, but it has been my experience that it's biggest proponents are power gamers.

[Glyph]

Karmagen suffered because shortly after it came out, SR4A came out and put it in rules limbo for a long time. Even now, although (I hear) the new versions of the book in the U.S. come with the errata now, it has still not been released on the official site. Plus, the original version sparked a lot of controversy with the "free" metatype cost (even though most of the metatypes have a net point gain under the build point system, too), and with how powerful characters were (according to Ancient History, it was supposed to be 600, with 750 being the intended amount for the revised Attribute costs in SR4A).

It is a good system, but it doesn't really discourage min-maxing, per se. It would be a poor system indeed if you couldn't optimize characters with it, considering that shadowrunners are supposed to be established professional criminal specialists. But what it does do, and do well, with it's incrementally increasing costs, is make low dice pools cheaper. Traditionally min-maxed characters generally can get their high dice pools, and have some points left over for some "extra" skills. Generalist characters, on the other hand, find that spreading out gives them lots and lots of points. A specialist will be slightly over, compared to 400 BP. A generalist will be way over, compared to 400 BP. But the two types of characters are still more balanced in comparison to each other, as opposed to build points, where generalists get screwed by the flat point costs in addition to being screwed by their decision to go with lower dice pools.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

that's why I wonder, why people still use BP system after 3 (?) years of RC. They should have started with karmagen in the core book from the beginning. The math is really not harder or taking longer.

Because I prefer the BP System?
I disagree about the Karmagen System, as well. I do not really like it all that much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Irion]

@Fortinbras

Karmagen is much preferred by folks who want to play Free Spirits, Vampires and Dragons without having to pay for it.

As far as I know Dragons and Vampires need a Quality and you have to pay Karma for Qualities. So it stays true for Free Spirits and Shifters, and sapient critters and AIs.
Well, it is still imbalanced. They should have taken the time to writen down the Karma costs for alle the Races. This would have been just a little table and it would have been moren than a little improvement for the Karma system. So you could say the Karma system is half backed. Which is a little bit sad, because it is in most other aspects much better than the BP system.

Irion, I can't imagine why you'd ever want to do any of those things.

@Epicedion

They really should've stuck with the Priority system for the main book, and let Karma character generation be the advanced system.

I have to disagree. System wise the Karma System is the best System in the book.
The only drawback is, that they did not gave the racial costs in Karma. (And some advantages would also need to be changed)
So If everything would have been written for the Karma Gen, it would have been a better choice. There would be no threads about getting your Force 4 Powerfocus at Chargen etc.

[Epicedion]

I have to disagree. System wise the Karma System is the best System in the book.
The only drawback is, that they did not gave the racial costs in Karma. (And some advantages would also need to be changed)
So If everything would have been written for the Karma Gen, it would have been a better choice. There would be no threads about getting your Force 4 Powerfocus at Chargen etc.

Karma generation is just too many points to deal with sanely, takes forever, and requires a ledger sheet to make sure you're not over/under-spending.

Priority is much quicker and easier, and generates reasonable characters. It's simple. Simple is good. Especially when it comes to character generation, because playing is more interesting and fun than building characters for 5 hours, especially if you're trying to get new players into the game, and even more especially if they're not all that familiar with tabletop RPGs. The BP system is a pretty large hurdle to jump if you're new to the game, and Karma generation is even larger.

Karma process:
Increase Strength 1->2, 2 x 5 = 10 karma
Increase Strength 2->3, 3 x 5 = 15 karma
Increase Strength 3->4, 4 x 5 = 20 karma
Increase Strength 4->5, 5 x 5 = 25 karma
Total = 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 = 70 karma

BP process:
Increase Strength 1->5 = (5 - 1) x 10 = 40 BP

Priority Process:
Increase Strength 1->5, 5 - 1 = 4 points

[Fortinbras]

As far as I know Dragons and Vampires need a Quality and you have to pay Karma for Qualities.

Drakes pay in Qualities, but the only Dragon PCs are from the April Fools Day rules, which some people seem to think aren't unbalanced and use them, seemingly unfamiliar with why it's funny.
Personally, I'm more of a "if it ain't broke" kind of guy, and far too many people use the term "broken" to mean "rule I don't like" rather than "unplayable."
In any event, I've yet to have a problem with any 400BP character, it's in the base book, which are easier to reference and we have more of them so they are easier to pass around the room, and the last thing my players need are more rules in a already rules heavy system.

I've yet to find anything wrong with the karmagen system, but from what I've seen on Dumpshock, those screaming the longest and the loudest about the benefits of karmagen are also the ones making thrice Initiated toxic shamans with Ally Spirits, so I'm a little gun shy.

[Irion]

@Epicedion

The BP system is a pretty large hurdle to jump if you're new to the game, and Karma generation is even larger.

The Karma is already in the game. So with BP you have to jump two hurdels.

I mean it gets obvious if you are looking at Technomancers. If you are building with BP you have to go with Resonanz 6 and 10 Komplex Forms to six or you are going to fall behind soon.
Same thing with attributes.
Yeah, it is easy to raise your Orks Body from 3 to 5, but well you can't know it would have been a lot better to raise it to 8.

The BP System lets new players make mistakes possibly screwing their character.

But for example buying a mage some Knowledge skill instead of increasing Intuition from 4 to 5 is fucking your char up forever. (Here we are talking 10 BP for 5 free BP, so as a matter of fact you pay 5 BP for something costing 25 Karma in Game)
And there are several loopholes like this. Getting a spec. at Chargen, screws you too.
Binding Sprites (as a Technomancer) is also a waste of BP (if you are not only playing one run with this char).

Karma might be a bit tougher on calculating, but everyone has a pocket calculator. But for the BP system you need to know the game. You need to know the Karma costs afterwards. You need to know your group. It is not a big deal to build two 400 BP characters where after giving them 50 Karma the one Char can do anything the other char can do and has additional abilitys worth 100 Karma.
Human: Strengh two instead of edge 6. 10 compared to 30 Karma.
Perception 1 instead of automatics 5 to 6: 4 to 12 Karma.

@Fortinbras

Drakes pay in Qualities, but the only Dragon PCs are from the April Fools Day rules, which some people seem to think aren't unbalanced and use them, seemingly unfamiliar with why it's funny.

Some people think they were an april fool. I tend to agree with those.

I've yet to find anything wrong with the karmagen system, but from what I've seen on Dumpshock, those screaming the longest and the loudest about the benefits of karmagen are also the ones making thrice Initiated toxic shamans with Ally Spirits, so I'm a little gun shy.

I personal find it more than amusing to hear that from someone promoting to play with rules from an april fool.

[Fortinbras]

I personal find it more than amusing to hear that from someone promoting to play with rules from an april fool.

My apologizes. I wasn't being clear. I do not now, nor would I ever, play, nor would I let any of my players play, a dragon in Shadowrun. It's absurd. It's why I find the April Fools Day rules hilarious.
There are those, however, who think the rules aren't unbalanced and use them anyway. These people missed the point of the joke. This does not prevent them from posting on Dumpshock. A quick search-fu will show those who believe the April fools rules to be a viable playing tool are not small. This makes me weep for the future.
I was trying to say "There are those who use the April fools rules, and they don't understand why it's funny." not "Some people use them, justifying why their use is acceptable. I don't understand why they are funny."

Near as I can tell, those joke rules are the only ones published that make out rules for creating a dragon PC. Those who promote this as a usable supplement are also those who are the biggest proponents of karmagen.

I hope that made more sense.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm happy with BP. Also, what?:

The BP System lets new players make mistakes possibly screwing their character

Does 'screwing their character' mean 'not fully optimized to hell and back'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) At worst, they 'waste' a handful of karma, but they get the character they want.

[Epicedion]

The Karma is already in the game. So with BP you have to jump two hurdels.

Karma for upgrades is a hurdle, itself. Assigning points is intuitive. I can set a new player down with the priority system and explain a few basic mechanics, and left to his own devices he'll produce a character that's probably not half bad.

Does 'screwing their character' mean 'not fully optimized to hell and back'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) At worst, they 'waste' a handful of karma, but they get the character they want.

Pretty much this. Karma seems keyed specifically to make highly optimized characters, with no wasted space. Characters that are min/maxed in order to take total advantage of future Karma expenditures also tend to take advantage of getting shot in the face.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not worried about karma being 'for optimization', I just take serious issue with the idea that a newbie's BP character is 'screwed'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Imagine the same new player using karmagen and spending 'too much' on his troll's maxed strength? What a fool! How screwed!

Since we're talking about it, though: why is one of the major differences (KG/BP) the fact that KG allows access to Submersion/Initiation? That's a simple case of the two 'gens' playing by different rules, not different numbers; hardly fair.

[Makki]

Karma generation is just too many points to deal with sanely, takes forever, and requires a ledger sheet to make sure you're not over/under-spending.

I don't want a character to be built quickly. Neither as a GM nor a PC. It's supposed to be done thoroughly, put some thought in it (matching stats and background etc.)
First session of a new campaign: Explain what it's about and decide who's gonna play what.
Second session: everybody has a character done, all look over it and on we go. That's one week's time for chargen math and background. BP math might take 1 hour and karmagen math takes 2 hours. But who cares? For someone new to join the table, you give something ready-to-play and if he likes the game, he has a week to figure it out...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Karma is already in the game. So with BP you have to jump two hurdels.

I mean it gets obvious if you are looking at Technomancers. If you are building with BP you have to go with Resonanz 6 and 10 Komplex Forms to six or you are going to fall behind soon.
Same thing with attributes.
Yeah, it is easy to raise your Orks Body from 3 to 5, but well you can't know it would have been a lot better to raise it to 8.

The BP System lets new players make mistakes possibly screwing their character.

This only matters if you are going to Maximize yoru character to the fullest possible extent, which most people need to learn to do. In fact, optimization is not the first reaction to playing the game, at least in my experience. It is to build a character that will follow a concept. And this is where we, as GM's, need to take a hand. If you allow a brand new player to build a character with absolutely no input as to how the world works, then you only have yourself to blame for that.

As for the above, I completely disagree about the Technomancer example you gave. I find it false on many, many levels.

But for example buying a mage some Knowledge skill instead of increasing Intuition from 4 to 5 is fucking your char up forever. (Here we are talking 10 BP for 5 free BP, so as a matter of fact you pay 5 BP for something costing 25 Karma in Game)
And there are several loopholes like this. Getting a spec. at Chargen, screws you too.
Binding Sprites (as a Technomancer) is also a waste of BP (if you are not only playing one run with this char).

Also Disagree on this as well... Not everyone has a 5 in Intuiition. And Knowledge Skills are much more useful than the Increase in intuition that you espouse. Also, sometimes it makes sense to Specialize in CG. I often do it, in fact, especially if it fits the character. Is it a waste? Arguable, at best.

Karma might be a bit tougher on calculating, but everyone has a pocket calculator. But for the BP system you needtknow the game. You need to know the Karma costs afterwards. You need to know your group. It is not a big deal to build two 400 BP characters where after giving them 50 Karma the one Char can do anything the other char can do and has additional abilitys worth 100 Karma.
Human: Strengh two instead of edge 6. 10 compared to 30 Karma.
Perception 1 instead of automatics 5 to 6: 4 to 12 Karma.

Again, this is a case of assisting the new player to build appropriately to your game. It is also very dependant upon the player involved. What one player sees as Gimped, another player sees as perfectly playable. Styles differ.

Anyways...

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
I do not care if the differance is up o 50 Karma or so. But here you can easy go up to 100+ Karma.

At worst, they 'waste' a handful of karma, but they get the character they want.

No, they get the weaker variant of the character they wanted, because they did not know the game. And nothing throughout the game will ever change that.
Sorry, but how many chars do start without any skill 6 or 5? And do not give me it always fits the character. It normaly (looking at the description of the skill) would not.

If you would stretch the skill range from 1-7 to 1-12 and you would be using Karma Gen, I bet you would not see a lot of people running aroung with Automatics 10, beeing the äquivalent of former 6 (concerning the fluff).
(But it back in BP-Gen and you would get a lot of starting sams with 10 (since it would be a cheap to buy it now, compared to later).

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

This only matters if you are going to Maximize yoru character to the fullest possible extent, which most people need to learn to do. In fact, optimization is not the first reaction to playing the game, at least in my experience. It is top build a character that will follow a concept. And this is where we, as GM's, need to take a hand. If you allow a branhd new player to build a character with absolutely no input as to how the world works, then you only have yourself to blame for that.

What you say is true for stuff like: Forgot to pick street knowedge skill. Prefered combat skill 1 over combatskill 2(which is much more awsome) etc.
I do not say, it has to be impossible to build a "weak" character.

Again, this is a case of assisting the new player to build appropriately to your game. It is also very dependant upon the player involved. What one player sees as Gimped, another player sees as perfectly playable. Styles differ.

That does not change the fact, that BP system rewards players for minmaxing the hell out of their characters and punishs players who don't.

Not everyone has a 5 in Intuiition. And Knowledge Skills are much more useful than the Increase in intuition that you espouse. Also, sometimes it makes sense to Specialize in CG. I often do it, in fact, especially if it fits the character. Is it a waste? Arguable, at best.

So it is "good", if the system punishs you for not taking intuition 5?

If you compare Inution 5 and 5 BP of knowledge skills against Intuition 4 and 10 BP of knowledge skill, the first is better. (And both options cost 10 BP)

[Makki]

Since we're talking about it, though: why is one of the major differences (KG/BP) the fact that KG allows access to Submersion/Initiation? That's a simple case of the two 'gens' playing by different rules, not different numbers; hardly fair.

It doesn't allow for initiation. The GM allows for it. And we never even talked about it as we think it's silly.

[Epicedion]

Since we're talking about it, though: why is one of the major differences (KG/BP) the fact that KG allows access to Submersion/Initiation? That's a simple case of the two 'gens' playing by different rules, not different numbers; hardly fair.

That is bizarre. Fortunately I think it's also a sidebar option as opposed to part of the basic system, unless that's been updated outside of RC.

I don't want a character to be built quickly. Neither as a GM nor a PC. It's supposed to be done thoroughly, put some thought in it (matching stats and background etc.)
First session of a new campaign: Explain what it's about and decide who's gonna play what.
Second session: everybody has a character done, all look over it and on we go. That's one week's time for chargen math and background. BP math might take 1 hour and karmagen math takes 2 hours. But who cares? For someone new to join the table, you give something ready-to-play and if he likes the game, he has a week to figure it out...

I certainly do. Why in the hell should it take that long and be so fiddly? You can thoroughly stat a character in any sort of character generation system, much in the way you can thoroughly build a sofa from Ikea without having to mill the wood, cast the bolts, and grow the cotton so you can sew the upholstery all yourself. Maybe it's not the best sofa you ever built, but it still does all the things a sofa should do. It shouldn't take 5 hours to go from concept to character sheet, wasting all your time thinking about dropping Parachuting by 1 point and losing a couple rating points on your second Commlink's Browse program to get back just enough cash for a BP/Karma so you can take a 5 point addiction and get that Reaction from 3 to 4.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, they get the weaker variant of the character they wanted, because they did not know the game. And nothing throughout the game will ever change that.
Sorry, but how many chars do start without any skill 6 or 5? And do not give me it always fits the character. It normaly (looking at the description of the skill) would not.

False, and False....

Example: MOST of my characters start out with NO Skill at 6, and only rarely a Skill at 5 (and by rarely, I mean 1 in about 10)
Never forget that Skill ratings of 3 are PROFESSIONAL rated... How many people that you deal with, on a day to day basis, even have a 5 Skill (ELITE) in any thing that they pursue? I would bet none. By your arguments, EVERY character should have an ELITE or BEST OF THE BEST (5 or 6) rating in at least One skill, if not more. A Skill of 5, 6 or 7 RARELY fits a character, especially one that is supposed to be new to the Scene (as a New Character at least). If they are an established character, where that level of skill is relevant and normal, then they are so far beyond 400 BP that they should not really be a topic of discussion.

If you would stretch the skill range from 1-7 to 1-12 and you would be using Karma Gen, I bet you would not see a lot of people running aroung with Automatics 10, beeing the äquivalent of former 6 (concerning the fluff).
(But it back in BP-Gen and you would get a lot of starting sams with 10 (since it would be a cheap to buy it now, compared to later).

I find your arguments lack a lot of substance here. Fluff wise, you will rarely see a character with a skill above 4, and yet you argue for just that thing out of Character Generation. It all comes down to how you design a character. If you are the Best of the Best (or heaven forbid, Legendary) in a skill, why exactly do the corps not try to extract you on a weekly, if not daily, basis. As a starting character, you would never be able to stop that.

BP Character Generation is the easiest method, by far. And I have to agree with Makki here. I do not need to create a character FAST (though I can). I would much rather be thorough. Does Karma Gen work? Sure. Does Priority Work? Sure. But both are advanced methods of creating a character that a New Player should not be bothered with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Epicedion]

Does Karma Gen work? Sure. Does Priority Work? Sure. But both are advanced methods of creating a character that a New Player should not be bothered with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Priority's about as un-advanced as the system can get. BP isn't overly complex, but it's still very fiddly. Karma just gets ridiculous.

[Irion]

BP Character Generation is the easiest method, by far.

Funny, in your earlyer post you said: Players need help to get along with the BP system.

Sorry to repeat it:
BP is not easy it is fast.
Karma is easy (if the rules would have been written properly) but it is slow.

A generation system is easy if it does not offer a lot of choices.
F.e: No stuff with an availability higher 12 etc.

It is getting harder if the cost from generation to game are differant, if there are ways around given restrictions (born rich, restricted gear, Metagenetic qualities etc)

I am not saying that the Karma system is perfect, there are loopholes too.
(For example a adept getting magic 3 and 1.1 Points of second hand Cyberware to get back to 1, so he can get in game another Point of cyber and an other point of Magic.)
Instead of the newbe adept who is starting out pure and tries to add some cyber to his build with magic 5.
(So he ends up paying the same amount of Karma for 2 point of ware the other guy is paying for 4)

What I do no get is why people try to defend a system, which is obvious worse than the other one...

MOST of my characters start out with NO Skill at 6

Speaking for which group? (Thats what I meant with you need to know the group)
And this is all background knowledge a new player does not have.
Of course the GM can build a char for the new guy, but should a system aim for that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Priority's about as un-advanced as the system can get. BP isn't overly complex, but it's still very fiddly. Karma just gets ridiculous.

I find the Priority System in SR4 to be fiddly, in a lot of regards, especially because certain things are decided already for you (It requires much more in the way of sacrifice than BP does, at least in my experience. It also reduces your choice, which I, also, do not like). BP is superior in that regard, at least in my opinion. I can get what I want, within limits, because you often have to make some sacrifices for what you want (Guess I cannnot be WORLD CLASS in this skill, or World Class in this Attribute... Ow well). Charcters, because of their sacrifices, become a little more alive for me. I tend to see a lot of skills in the 1-3 range, rather than a lot in the 3-6 range; and Stats remain in the "norms" for the majority of humanity (pre-augmentation of course). Karma Gen allows everything, with little to no sacrifice, which is why I dislike it so much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

BUT, As Yerameyahu will no doubt point out, our table tends to run a bit atypical to normal tables. Dice pools of 8-12 do not bother us as much as it seems to bother others here on Dumpshock. *shrug*

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Karma Gen allows everything, with little to no sacrifice, which is why I dislike it so much.

Now you are jocking, are you?

If you think 750 Karma Chars are too good, go with 600 Karma. (Whats the fuzz about that?)
But the Kramasystem does not punish you for getting these two skill at three instead of this one skill at 6. (The BP System on the other hand does)

[Yerameyahu]

God forbid, Irion, that they get a *slightly* weaker version of the same character. PnP is PvP after all—right?—so no doubt they'll get ganked by the powergamers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) No, it's a game custom-tailored by the GM to the group, and a couple of dice (literally) isn't going to ruin the game for them. Under no circumstances are they "screwed" by not understanding the numerical idiosyncrasies of the various chargen systems. More likely, they'll be screwed by not knowing what gear to buy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

OK, so how does this all tie back in to Free Spirit PCs in SR4?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Now you are jocking, are you?

If you think 750 Karma Chars are too good, go with 600 Karma. (Whats the fuzz about that?)
But the Kramasystem does not punish you for getting these two skill at three instead of this one skill at 6. (The BP System on the other hand does)

No, I am not joking.

I have compared characters, from time to time, with each system, and you get significantly more powerful characters with Karma Gen compared to the BP system. Attributes are higher across the board, and skills are more plentiful with larger skill levels. Happened each and every time I compared. Even with new Karma Gen Costs. If I want a more proficient character, I would go with Karma Gen, as it does not force those hard decisions upon the character as to what skills (and their levels) they would like. But, as I am happy with the BP system, I do not need to do that.

As for your solution... If it takes a decrease in the Karma Gen Starting Allotment to get the points down to something that I already get with the BP system, why would I want to do that? BP covers me quite nicely, thank you.

AS for how this ties back to Free Spirit PC's, pbangarth? The BP system is perfectly fine for creating a functional and interesting Free Spirit character.