3e players: What to steal from 4e ?, system-wise, of course Options

[silva]

What pieces and bits from 4e could be stolen for 3e that could do well for it in general? This question is, of course, targeted mainly at those who still enjoy and/or play 3e.

Initially I thought the "atrib + skill" roll from 4e (where "atrib" replaces combat Pool) could be cool in 3e, but you folks already convinced me otherwise (thanks for that).

But I think there still bits that could be stolen from 4e, like for eg Initiative. Ditching the 3e initiative values and phase calculations (eg: 21-11-1) and replacing it for the (faster) 4e Initiative system could work well, at first sight.


So, what do you guys think ? Are there bits from 4e that could make be implemented in 3e and make it a more agile/simple/coherent/etc ?

Thanks.

[nezumi]

A lot of the equipment. I love the smart contacts, the monofilament chainsaw and so on.

If you're talking mechanically ... perhaps drop the prices of cyberware, rigger gear and matrix stuff to avoid the 'million nuyen man' 'problem'.

[Summerstorm]

Ah... this will be good. I think this might be one of my favourite topics. (I LOVED playing 2nd and 3ed ed - now i am "stuck" gming a 4th one)

First: splitting quickness into agility and reaction and intelligence into logic and intuition.
GOOD move. In 3rd needs a slight adjustment with build-points and the cyberenhancements. But finaly the fighters don't have all an IQ of 180, just to have better initiative.

Hm... ok. Don't have that much more at the moment. Will come back later.

[Stahlseele]

Some of the Gear Toys i could bribe my GM's into allowing for the world . .

[Pendaric]

gear, 'wear, spells, metamagics, cyber limbs doing physical damage, tasers rules with a tweak makes more sense, power sets for spirits particulary inhabitation allies and threats. and er most of the future is useful

[Kagetenshi]

So, what do you guys think ? Are there bits from 4e that could make be implemented in 3e and make it a more agile/simple/coherent/etc ?

No. It's sad, but the system really is pretty much fundamentally devoid of value.

But I think there still bits that could be stolen from 4e, like for eg Initiative. Ditching the 3e initiative values and phase calculations (eg: 21-11-1) and replacing it for the (faster) 4e Initiative system could work well, at first sight.

Faster how? They both involve one roll per combatant per turn.

~J

[Stahlseele]

Only in so fern, that, as far as i know, NOTHING can change the number of rounds you get to go in SR4. You have 3 Ini-Passes? As long as you are still standing, you get 3 Passes!
In SR3, Damage meant you lost Initiative, which could make somebody with 3 rounds because he got 22 Initiative for example, go down to 2 rounds, because he's only at 20 Initiative after Medium Damage.
Otherwise you are, of course, completely correct. Ini is Ini. You roll your number of times.

[Kyoto Kid]

...advanced Genetech.

...elimination of the Magic Loss for Deadly Wound rule

...not having to learn a spell at different force ratings.

...Turn to Goo spell.

...Adept Mystic Armour power granting both Ballistic and Impact protection.

...rating 3 Synaptic Accelerator.

...Orthoskin granting +1 B/+1 I per rating.

...Bone Density bioware

...Modular Cyberlimbs

..."Smart Wheel" technology.

...Metalstorm Weapons (they already exist in RL)

...PJSS Elephant Rifle.

...Stick & Shock ammo.

...Spray Foam Explosive.

[EKBT81]

...PJSS Elephant Rifle.

IIRC the Elephant Rifle actually debuted in Brennpunkt ADL, a German late-3E sourcebook.

I've once thought about turning the karma pool into an edge-like attribute. Let metas start at 1, norms at 2, increase according to standard 3E attribute-improvement rules.

Merge the Submachine Gun and Assault Rifle skills. We actually did that before 4E, influenced by GURPS.

[Kyoto Kid]

...wasn't available where I am as I live in the states.

...and one more:

...the simpler approach to Ambidexterity (becomes a 15 point edge). You either got it or you don't, none of that muddling around with different modifier levels.

[Tiralee]

The setting, the changes to political/geopolitical boundaries, the now-now-now rush of information (good and ill) and how, through all the changes, the same shit draws the same flies.

Also - the revised cyber prices/essence. That stuff is sick.

-Tir.

[Summerstorm]

Also - the revised cyber prices/essence. That stuff is sick.

-Tir.

Hm, but not the drone-prices. I still have problems to explain why people still work and SR isn't an crystal-age utopia. I wouldn't change cyber-prices THAT much too though. I prefer the old values. 1 million nuyen in cyber... so what? It sounds much, but a nuyen isn't a euro or a dollar.

New prices are pretty fucked up for me instead. Weapon focus for a few thousand? Sure... why not.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hm, but not the drone-prices. I still have problems to explain why people still work and SR isn't an crystal-age utopia. I wouldn't change cyber-prices THAT much too though. I prefer the old values. 1 million nuyen in cyber... so what? It sounds much, but a nuyen isn't a euro or a dollar.

New prices are pretty fucked up for me instead. Weapon focus for a few thousand? Sure... why not.

Your right. The Nuyen is not the Euro or the Dollar. It has a monetary value 2-5 times as much, depending upon the source. So yes, 1 Million Nuyen is a HUGE amount of money.

My opinion is that the prices in Shadowrun Pre-SR4 were all sorts of crazy. They have finally come down to something approaching the sane level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Summerstorm]

Other way around.

Low Lifestyle is 2000 nuyen. Medium is 5000. A cheap meal out of a can is 5 Nuyen. It is more like one fifth of a euro, not five times.

Investing a million in a ultimate fighter, so he can murder for you the next ten years is totally acceptable. But the prices in 4th are a bit screwed sometimes: Paying half a months wage to buy a robot perfectly capabable of fullfilling the role of a poor worker? sure, why not.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Other way around.

Low Lifestyle is 2000 nuyen. Medium is 5000. A cheap meal out of a can is 5 Nuyen. It is more like one fifth of a euro, not five times.

Investing a million in a ultimate fighter, so he can murder for you the next ten years is totally acceptable. But the prices in 4th are a bit screwed sometimes: Paying half a months wage to buy a robot perfectly capabable of fullfilling the role of a poor worker? sure, why not.

Actually, No, it isnt't... You should check your sources. 1 Nuyen is anywhere from 2-5 Dollars, depending upon which Edition you reference. It was a big topic on the forums here a while back. I bet you could still even find it.

But assume that I was wrong...
So you are saying that it takes 400 Euro/month (or Dollars/Month) to obtain an equivalent Low Lifestyle where you Live? 1000/Month for a Medium? Really? Remember, A Cheap Meal out of a Can Nowadays costs less than 1 Dollar, especially if you are not particular as to what the meal is. So 5 Nuyen is totally acceptable for the Shadowrun Equivalent.

As for your Robot comparisons. You can indeed do that, and it is ultimately cheaper, which is why there are a bunch of Sinless in the World of Shadowrun. That is the whole point. Machine has replaced man in a lot of industries. Man no longer has a niche in industries where he can prosper. Man can no longer take care of himself or his family. Man soon defaults on debts. Man is soon SINless.

The Nuyen is Far Stronger than the comparable alternatives. Which is why it is the Monetary system of choice in Shadowrun.

EDIT: for Value Conversions...

[CanRay]

TJ, the UCAS Dollar is heavily undervalued because, well, the UCAS is heavily undervalued compared to the Corporate Court. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

On the bright side, a fat stack of Ronnies (I've told my group that the UCAS$1000 bill has Ronald Regan on it.) is a great way to pay off people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cheops]

I'd borrow the somewhat simplified wireless rules. Get rid of hardware and software requirements for the various links and just assume that all decks have that built in. I would still keep all the bandwidth rules from SR3 however since I/O speed is still an issue and it makes sense to increase difficulty to hack systems after logging into a vending machine. Introduce skinlink. Smartlink to eyeware was a brilliant move so it can now go in cybereyes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ, the UCAS Dollar is heavily undervalued because, well, the UCAS is heavily undervalued compared to the Corporate Court. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

On the bright side, a fat stack of Ronnies (I've told my group that the UCAS$1000 bill has Ronald Regan on it.) is a great way to pay off people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Heh... Still, it goes to show that the Nuyen is King in Shadowrun.

[CanRay]

Heh... Still, it goes to show that the Nuyen is King in Shadowrun.

*Holds up a Credstick like a sword in a heavy metal album cover* Hail to the king, baby!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*Holds up a Credstick like a sword in a heavy metal album cover* Hail to the king, baby!

So let it be Written, So let it be Done...

[Summerstorm]

Actually, No, it isnt't... You should check your sources. 1 Nuyen is anywhere from 2-5 Dollars, depending upon which Edition you reference. It was a big topic on the forums here a while back. I bet you could still even find it.

But assume that I was wrong...
So you are saying that it takes 400 Euro/month (or Dollars/Month) to obtain an equivalent Low Lifestyle where you Live? 1000/Month for a Medium? Really? Remember, A Cheap Meal out of a Can Nowadays costs less than 1 Dollar, especially if you are not particular as to what the meal is. So 5 Nuyen is totally acceptable for the Shadowrun Equivalent.

As for your Robot comparisons. You can indeed do that, and it is ultimately cheaper, which is why there are a bunch of Sinless in the World of Shadowrun. That is the whole point. Machine has replaced man in a lot of industries. Man no longer has a niche in industries where he can prosper. Man can no longer take care of himself or his family. Man soon defaults on debts. Man is soon SINless.

The Nuyen is Far Stronger than the comparable alternatives. Which is why it is the Monetary system of choice in Shadowrun.

EDIT: for Value Conversions...

Eh, i said: MORE like 1/5 than 5 times. I will settle for 1/4 too *g*. I am living pretty much low style and never used more than 500 euroes a month + (taxes and insurance), never got paid more than 1.500 a month (before taxes and insurance) and i am lucky. Without wanting to derailing the thread: Surely a Nuyen doesn't have the buying power of a modern 2011 euro, by FAR. And i stand by my opinion that most of the "old" prices were thematically more fitting and balanced. There was a reason people with M-b-W or Reflex Booster were just a class better: the cheap, crippled version Boosted reflexes were for the masses without future. The massive price difference was cool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Surely a Nuyen doesn't have the buying power of a modern 2011 euro, by FAR. And i stand by my opinion that most of the "old" prices were thematically more fitting and balanced. There was a reason people with M-b-W or Reflex Booster were just a class better: the cheap, crippled version Boosted reflexes were for the masses without future. The massive price difference was cool.

The sheer cost of the Difference (in 3rd Edition and before) was ludicrous, though; and besides, that massive price difference is still there... Wired 1 (11,000 Nuyen), MBW 1 (50,000 Nuyen) and The Bioware Enhancer for Initiative (80,000 Nuyen, Cannot remember the name to save my life). You are talking about Prices comparable to Houses or high end vehicles (except for the basic Wired package, of course). That is still crazy expensive, not to mention the costs involved with getting any of this 'Ware at Better Grades. Delta Grade, the costs are 110,000 Nuyen, 500,000 Nuyen and 800,000 Nuyen Respectively, all fore the Rating 1 Piece of Gear. Crazy Expensive Indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Synaptic Accellerator.

[nezumi]

You mean the +2 initiative dice, cultured bioware in M&M?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Synaptic Accellerator.

Thank You... That is it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)