Problem with the Magic Attribute Options

[Irion]

@Draco18s

Remember also that force of the spell limits net hits not total hits.

Ok, thats news to me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Mhm.
As far as the mage is concerned, it's a F7 spell, allowing up to 7 hits (of which he has 6). As far as the AA is concerned, it's a Force 3 spell. Except that it still has 6 hits behind it.
(Only force based effects are modified!)

Edit:
Remember also that force of the spell limits net hits not total hits.

Nope... Force of the Spell limits HITS, not NET HITS...

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force has a limiting effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

[longbowrocks]

Alright. looks like I was just misinterpreting a basic element of spellcasting.
This would have made much more sense if I had realized from the start that force was added to the effective power of a spell. I thought force was simply a limit on the power of a spell, and the power itself was dependent purely on hits.

[Draco18s]

This is a good point, and I can't believe no one's brought this sidebar up before. I'm still not really convinced that certain oddities in the system aren't intended to be bonus dice without being a modifier, though. Edge is sort of described in the same way as foci and specializations.

There are only 4 kinds of modifiers, there's no way to get bonus dice that are not in some way a dice pool modifier due to their nature of modifying the dice pool. Yes, even Edge.

Alright. looks like I was just misinterpreting a basic element of spellcasting.
This would have made much more sense if I had realized from the start that force was added to the effective power of a spell. I thought force was simply a limit on the power of a spell, and the power itself was dependent purely on hits.

Some spells don't need more than 1 hit to get full benefit. Some spells don't need to be more than Force 1 (as their effect is neither force nor hit dependent). Some spells don't do anything based on force, but do on hits (but Force caps hits). Some get benefit from both Force and hits (mostly combat spells).

[TheOOB]

But it does... Steps 3 and 4 of the Spellcasting Guidelines... How many times does it need to be said? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



However, since it is not Stated as such, and since any modifiers not delineated as direct Skill or Attribute modifiers are to be considered Dice Pool Modifiers, well, you know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Changes to fix these inconsistencies belong in an Eratta. A FAQ just will not cut it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I must ask how you come to that conclusion. A dice pool is, by definition, the dice you roll for a test. Multi-casting splits the dice pool. The info in step 4 doesn't add dice to your dice pool, it explains how to assemble your dice pool, and even if it did add dice, the fact remains is that a dice pool is the dice you roll on a test, regardless of how those dice got there. If you are rolling dice on the test, those dice are part of your dice pool, which is, in this case, split.

[Muspellsheimr]

Arcane Arrester reduces the effective Force of the spell in regards to that character - including anything derived from Force. It is largely arbitrary on if this limits spellcasting Hits applied to the arrested character.

Despite essentially being "GM's Discretion", the stance that the reduced Force is used for limiting spellcasting hits has somewhat stronger rules support. In addition, that seems to be the intended function.

New question regarding Arcane Arrester. It says "though the spellcaster could still add hits to improve the effect." The meaning seems fairly obvious - the spell is resisted as normal, with the caster's Net Hits functioning as normal. What is unclear is if the reduced Force of the spell limits the Raw Hits the caster may get, or the original Force. From the wording of the quality, I can see it either way.

My ruling on this is that it the adjusted Force should limit hits as normal, however, the ambiguity of the writeup allows gamemasters to rule the other way if they want Arcane Arrester to be less powerful.

Edit: Keep in mind the ruling that the full Hits apply (instead of reduced maximum from reduced Force) essentially eliminates the qualities effect on the vast majority of spells (some beneficial, most harmful). The cost of the quality is also far to high for the received benefit under that ruling.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I must ask how you come to that conclusion. A dice pool is, by definition, the dice you roll for a test. Multi-casting splits the dice pool. The info in step 4 doesn't add dice to your dice pool, it explains how to assemble your dice pool, and even if it did add dice, the fact remains is that a dice pool is the dice you roll on a test, regardless of how those dice got there. If you are rolling dice on the test, those dice are part of your dice pool, which is, in this case, split.

Step 3 tells you to split your Starting Pool (Attribute + Skill, note that it does not yet discuss Modifiers).
Step 4 then Adds in Modifiers.

Easy Peasy...
Since there is precedence for Splitting Dice Pools using this method (See the Previous Chapter of the Book), and since doing it the other way creates insane situations, it is the most logical option. However, I know that not everyone agrees on this, so Your Mileage May Vary.

[Draco18s]

and since doing it the other way creates insane situations

See prior examples.

Edit: Keep in mind the ruling that the full Hits apply (instead of reduced maximum from reduced Force) essentially eliminates the qualities effect on the vast majority of spells (some beneficial, most harmful). The cost of the quality is also far to high for the received benefit under that ruling.

Compare it to the Magic Resistance quality then. Equivalent BP should be +4 dice to resist spells.
Which would you rather have?

[Muspellsheimr]

+4 to resist spells over that interpretation of Arrester. Easily.

I also consider Magic Resistance to be a subpar quality.

[Yerameyahu]

If only it weren't written so unclearly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As is, you have to simply house-interpret it for your table (preferable before chargen, heh). Still, I always rule to the detriment of the players, so I'm partial to the argument 'if they meant 1/2 everything, they would have just said that'.

[longbowrocks]

If only it weren't written so unclearly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As is, you have to simply house-interpret it for your table (preferable before chargen, heh). Still, I always rule to the detriment of the players, so I'm partial to the argument 'if they meant 1/2 everything, they would have just said that'.

I like big numbers and I cannot lie, but having the GM play against you rather than as your guardian angel can be a lot of fun.
Can I play?

[Yerameyahu]

Heh. I mean, I'd use the same ruling for NPCs. As a general rule, I pick the weaker of two interpretations.

[TheOOB]

Step 3 tells you to split your Starting Pool (Attribute + Skill, note that it does not yet discuss Modifiers).
Step 4 then Adds in Modifiers.

Easy Peasy...
Since there is precedence for Splitting Dice Pools using this method (See the Previous Chapter of the Book), and since doing it the other way creates insane situations, it is the most logical option. However, I know that not everyone agrees on this, so Your Mileage May Vary.

If multi-casting worked the same as multi-shooting, why would they be worded differently? Also, step 4 says nothing about adding anything. "The Spellcaster rolls
Spellcasting + Magic, modified by foci, totem bonuses, bound spirits, and/or Visibility modifiers.", it mentions what modifiers exist on a Spellcasting + Magic roll, but it does not use the word add, or in addition to, or anything like that. Those modifiers always existed, even in step 3, they just were not explicitly mentioned. As mentioned before, if you are rolling a die, it is part of your dice pool. The book does not explicitly list every modifier that exists for every dice pool, it simply, in this instance, listed some of the more common modifiers to a Spellcasting + Magic dice pool. If step 4 is really adding to a dice pool, and step 3 has no modifiers, then I guess you don't get wound penalties when casting spells.

[Draco18s]

Wound modifiers are unmentioned in the "how to shoot a gun" section as well, so I guess they don't apply to that either!

Except:

Wound modifiers are dice pool modifiers that apply to nearly
all tests the injured character may attempt, except for resistance
tests.

There we have a general rule that is not co-opted by any specific rule in regards to this discussion.