Do awakened characters outshine unawakened?, Split from "Problem with the Magic Attribute" Options

[longbowrocks]

This title seems general enough to spur conversation. Especially since I don't know exactly what we were arguing before.
This thread is running on the assumption that the awakened characters have had a few hundred karma to sink into initiation, and unawakened are doing other stuff with their karma.

My problem with mages in any game is that they can be powerful, but they can also be rendered helpless as kittens by obscure means. Shadowrun is better about this since mages can invest in armor, body, and guns. On the other hand, Shadowrun awakened characters don't have incredibly high damage, and still have strange weaknesses on top of the things that can hurt unawakened characters.

I think I posted this a bit early, but I'll take responses as they come.

[CanRay]

Do they outshine? Sure! They're rare and powerful, often looked at with shock and awe by the populous. Even with the percentage that goes into Shadowrunning, they're rare.

There is one mitigating thing that levels the playing field pretty fraggin' quick, however: "Geek the mage first!"

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget the difference between 'outshine' and 'invulnerable'. The question is *only* the former.

[Summerstorm]

Hm hm... overall: Yes. They (can) start out more powerful, have more available tricks, can not be countered (except for other mages against spells and nothing against powers) and have an slower but more open-ended powergain. (Just take a look at my group: Essentially the mage does most healing, most information gathering, most damage in combat, most heavy lifting, most "legwork"... just needs a bit help for some social and technical issues.)

This doen't mean that being mundane is being weak, or unplayable though.

Just to add to the whole "magic is broken": A few things really are a bit weird (buying spells at powerlevel would be nice again, splitting the system like in 3rd edition - spirits and all- and allow for innate natural resistance of equal level for a price), but magic does belong in Shadowrun like butter on the bread.

[longbowrocks]

I don't know about that. Can't you just buy "astral hazing" at creation and hang out in your neighborhood for a few years? Or laugh at awakened characters in general?

That is to say, I can't think of any way to make an area of effect "screw you" for unawakened characters.

[longbowrocks]

can not be countered

Bullet. Done.

and have an slower but more open-ended powergain.

How do you figure? There's no way to reliably do max damage for a mage, and at creation they need to fully overcast for 12 DV attacks, which won't do 12 DV, whereas my face/sammie/infiltrator can spam 12DV attacks twice an IP, or switch to a full auto weapon.

[Yerameyahu]

As I already told you, Astral Hazing is both rare and extreme, and hurts you as much as it helps. And it's not invulnerability to magic, either.

Saying 'bullet' means nothing, come on. His point is that mundanes can't stop spells.

… Once again, the mage (mysad, etc.) can use the same gun for the same attacks that those guys can. A mage needn't *ever* use attack spells, though they're really good in some situations. And (because it bears repeating), direct spells ignore armor.

[Summerstorm]

Bullet. Done.


How do you figure? There's no way to reliably do max damage for a mage, and at creation they need to fully overcast for 12 DV attacks, which won't do 12 DV, whereas my face/sammie/infiltrator can spam 12DV attacks twice an IP, or switch to a full auto weapon.

Eh one vs. one fight:

Mage is attacker: Just summones a spirit and commands it to engulf the "dude in the next room", or just magegoggle: Mindcontrol - "Kill yourself" done.

Overcasting to a force 12 spell... so what? it's not like they will get any drain or something. And no armor againt it *g*.


While a combined background count and or arcane arrester and such works GREAT against most mages, against a very powerful one it is just no real hindrance. (BC can be nullified and even harnessed by high-level initiates)

[longbowrocks]

As I already told you, Astral Hazing is both rare and extreme, and hurts you as much as it helps. And it's not invulnerability to magic, either.

I didn't see any listed downsides to the metagenetic quality in runners companion, though some may be inferred. Are you talking about a cyberzombie's inherent Astral Hazing?

Saying 'bullet' means nothing, come on. His point is that mundanes can't stop spells.

Willpower is generally what they use to stop spells, then you can add magic resistance if you have it.

… Once again, the mage (mysad, etc.) can use the same gun for the same attacks that those guys can. A mage needn't *ever* use attack spells, though they're really good in some situations.

So, just buffs? that was 10 BP for MysAd, 65 for 6 magic, and 150 karma to raise it to 9. In the meantime a sammie would have 75 extra BP for bioware, gear, attributes, and skills, and max his will, edge, and a few other things with karma.

direct spells ignore armor.

Loophole there. You can only cast direct through LOS. full body armor + face mask would prevent LOS, like in augmentation page 160, on cyberzombies:
"The only living
part of a jarhead—the brain—is encapsulated within the CCU
which itself is enclosed within the drone body, where it is effectively
safe from spell targeting. Instead, the drone body itself
must be targeted by spells."

It makes sense that the same rules would apply here since the only thing the mage sees is your armor.

[Yerameyahu]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I feel like you think we're stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The downside is no mages on *your* side, and SURGE is not common. The question is not 'can you build an anti-mage character?'. It is 'do Awakened characters outshine mundanes, especially in the really long run?'. You should know, because you asked the question!

Willpower is rarely adequate, and who has magic resistance? How much? See above.

'Just buffs' is the whole game of SR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And no, because they *also* get attack spells, and utility spells, and spirits, etc. etc. No one said you needed Magic 9, either, or even Magic 6 to start. In the OP, you said 'a few hundred karma', so a small difference in initial BP isn't really relevant.

As it turns out, that's incorrect. Full body armor (masked or not) doesn't work that way. Besides, stunbolt isn't the only spell.

[Epicedion]

The quick answer is "sort of," and the long answer is "not really."

Magicians and Adepts can come on pretty strong and have a lot of nifty powers, abilities, and spells, but when it comes down to actually doing things, someone else is probably shining. Magicians can make it way easier for non-awakened characters to get their jobs done -- they can make the infiltrator invisible, but it's still up to the infiltrator to sneak past the guards and crack the lock. They can fight effectively, but the Street Sam will probably act faster and have a higher body count.

What ends up happening is other characters tend to get more glory than the mage, but they'd also have a really hard time making it without him.

By himself, though, the mage is mostly a big target.

[longbowrocks]

Eh one vs. one fight:

Sammie goes first in the majority of cases. In most cases I'm familiar with, combat is on you before you know it, so the sammie who went first shoots the mage. With a DV 9 barett. through the car with a AP 9 bullet. Still not dead? he shoots again.

Mage is attacker: Just summones a spirit and commands it to engulf the "dude in the next room", or just magegoggle: Mindcontrol - "Kill yourself" done.

Hopefully it's more than "the next room" away, because the sammie would still go first and either one hit the spirit or charge into the next room and kill the mage.

Mage goggles -> mind control: the sammie is fully covered. You have LOS on his silk gloves though. Or sammie has a ready action to pop the goggles with his gun. Or sammie is a tank that resists with will 6 + edge 6 + magic resistance 3 = 15 dice.

Overcasting to a force 12 spell... so what? it's not like they will get any drain or something. And no armor againt it *g*.

How would a magic 6 mage overcast to 12 and take no drain? More precisely, how do they have over 36 dice to resist drain?

(BC can be nullified and even harnessed by high-level initiates)

I don't see that one. Could you point me in the right direction?

[Yerameyahu]

Again, it's not 'can a mage beat X one-on-one?'. It's 'do Awakened characters outshine mundanes, especially in the long run?'.

I don't know why you're assuming the mage couldn't just as easily be the one going first.

I don't know why you're assuming anyone can 'one-hit the spirit'.

The mage can just as easily have Edge 6 (which is to say, not very easily). Most people don't have Edge 6. In any case, it's a resource that can quickly be depleted.

Once again, you can't avoid LOS with clothing or armor, AFAIK. There was some question about what happens in the area between full-body armor and mecha suits, but I think it was just fooling around. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're not approaching this logically, longbowrocks. You're just tossing up unconnected points that are frequently wrong or irrelevant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) It's very disappointing, after the fun in the other threads. Hmf.

[Summerstorm]

With the BC: I am away from books now, but you can lower BC (of non-epic proportions) by your initiationrank by using a complex action and "Cleansing" and you can harness it with the advenced metamagic of "Filtering". Both are very desirable metamagics for a runner.

LOS: Armour doesn't prevent line-of sight. Neither does full clothing, or even military full-armour. Some kind of mini-mechs will do it though. If you going against a great mage OR of your vehicle/drone-body won't save you (unless you have war and used the + OR modifications presented.

Sam doesn't always go first, a combat mage, buffed up for expected resistance can be as fast. Spirits are normaly faster than mortal too, and if they are already on search-and destroy duty and in PACKS, mundanes can not stop them.

Also there are many tricks available to the mage, with no possibility for the Sam to do anything against it: Just a normal invisibility spell (not the physical) will phase him out that he can nearly not be found, combined with concealment or such the mage will almost certainly surprise the Sam (not if the same is in an enclosed room with electronic countermeasures)

All this is of course assuming a VERY good mage with high-force spirits and/or lots of foci.

[longbowrocks]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I feel like you think we're stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This needs to be nipped in the bud. I worried people might think that, but I'm really just arguing my perspective. Please discount anything I say that seems to be patronizing.

The downside is no mages on *your* side, and SURGE is not common.

The question is not 'can you build an anti-mage character?'. It is 'do Awakened characters outshine mundanes, especially in the really long run?'. You should know, because you asked the question!

Definitely, but that's just to broaden the scope of the discussion. I feel like the winner in a battle to the death outshines his opponent because a corpse doesn't outshine anything.

Willpower is rarely adequate, and who has magic resistance? How much? See above.

Touche, but Will + edge is much better. average 4 hits, so minimum a mage needs 12 hits to take the character down (on an average roll).

'Just buffs' is the whole game of SR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And no, because they *also* get attack spells, and utility spells, and spirits, etc. etc. No one said you needed Magic 9, either, or even Magic 6 to start. In the OP, you said 'a few hundred karma', so a small difference in initial BP isn't really relevant.

BP allows you to max attributes and skills from creation more easily. You can also buy qualities with BP, I'm to bust trying to keep up with you guys to find out if you can do the same with Karma, or if that's a house rule.

As it turns out, that's incorrect. Full body armor (masked or not) doesn't work that way. Besides, stunbolt isn't the only spell.

It doesn't add it's armor rating, as described in the RAW, but to not add its structure rating would be inconsistent. If you can cast a spell directly on my being just by observing a metal casing around me, how big does the casing need to be before that changes? A car? A vault?

[CanRay]

In the long run, Magicians rock!

Ritual magic and spirit summoning alone give them multiple options and abilities that go beyond what a mundane can ever think of doing.

I'm working on a Dog Shaman at the moment, and the ideas I'm getting from Watcher Spirits alone are scaring even me.

[longbowrocks]

I don't know why you're assuming the mage couldn't just as easily be the one going first.

Adrenaline rush, which a mage can't buy (a MysAd can. Barely).
Also, Reaction is primarily a sammie attribute, Intuition can equally be bought by mage or sammie, and sammies don't need to give up magic to augment these with 'ware.

[Yerameyahu]

See, I think making it a fight is *limiting* the scope immensely. Mages are good at tons of things, not just killing single opponents; in addition, it encourages building a custom anti-mage to fight him, which is unrealistic.

As above, Edge is expensive and exhaustible. It's not really appropriate to rely on it for this, I feel. Else, we have to let the mage use *his* Edge 6 on everything as well. This is a symptom of the anti-mage problem I mentioned: part of the reason mages shine is that *normal* people have no defense against them. If a specifically anti-mage character has some defense, that doesn't alter the general situation.

I'm not sure what you're saying about BP. I was saying that you don't need Magic 6 or 9 or whatever to be a powerful Awakened character… at all, really.

It has to be a Barrier or a Vehicle, yes. Armor is simply different, in magical terms (sorry). In magical terms, clothing and armor is *you*, for LOS.

The mage *isn't* giving up much to get the same 'ware, that's the point. That's the *whole* point of the 'long term/high karma' question. The mage can get 'ware and still get magic and spells, and everything else. Mundanes have a wall to hit. Skills can only go to maybe 7, attributes and augmentations max out, and then they're done.

Or, use the spell version (Increased Initiative, Increased Reaction, etc.). I've never seen anyone get Adrenaline Rush, but I'll admit that characters specifically with that could go first (what is it, once?). Assuming they can both see each other, etc. The mage can just as easily get Reaction and Intuition.

[longbowrocks]

In the long run, Magicians rock!

Ritual magic and spirit summoning alone give them multiple options and abilities that go beyond what a mundane can ever think of doing.

I'm working on a Dog Shaman at the moment, and the ideas I'm getting from Watcher Spirits alone are scaring even me.

Lol, if everyone can forget I'm on the unawakened side for a moment, I'd like to ask about Rituals.
My GM says that ritual spells can be done using a material from the victim, like voodoo. It says pretty clearly in the core book that you need LOS or a spotter with LOS for rituals. What is he referencing?

[Hound]

Loophole there. You can only cast direct through LOS. full body armor + face mask would prevent LOS, like in augmentation page 160, on cyberzombies:
"The only living
part of a jarhead—the brain—is encapsulated within the CCU
which itself is enclosed within the drone body, where it is effectively
safe from spell targeting. Instead, the drone body itself
must be targeted by spells."

that's a rule for cyborgs, not cyberzombies.

More importantly, the reason a mage cannot target a cyborg in a drone body is because they have like .01 essence, there's almost nothing left of their soul. So, there's not enough left to "shine" through their drone body. Also a cyborg in a drone body is indistinguishable from a regular drone, which cannot be targeted by mana spells. However, a human in body armor is clearly a human in body armor and nearly all humans will have way more than .01 essence. I suppose stunbolt would be a lot less useful if you could just cover up your whole body to counter indirect spells, but I don't think that's what they were intending. You can't apply rules made for one special/extreme case (cyborgs) to everyone with FBA

[Summerstorm]

Aye, it is not just physical conflict.

Whole skills and cybersystem and equipments can be made obsolete by a simple 5 karma spell, OR by just calling a spirit to do it FOR you.

If you have guardian spirits you can operate ANY weapon with potential more skill than POSSIBLE for a mundane and without losing actions, a task-spirit can do ANY work you choose. You can levitate (or be carried by a spirit) and negate: jumping, climbing, falling, parachuting etc. By extension the POWERS of the spirits you command are YOURS. These powers (if used by a high force spirit) can not be countered and have no penalties (as sustaining spells have).

You can heal additional damage, negate all poisons, radiation, all influences. Don't need to eat etc. With time and money you can have a own "emergency-team" of spirits, making you an small army in itself. You can watch people from another plane, can find out information and persons without going to "look for it", you can see into the future and into the minds of people. No secrets from you.

And much of this you can do "on the fly"

Of course you pay for these powers... but they are overwhelming and many of them are easily possible at start and only get better.

EDIT: as for the rituals The metamagic "Sympathatic Link" allows you to cast through personal belongings and such. This and "Great Ritual" are metamagics VERY much needed for doing horrible and funny stuff through rituals.

[Yerameyahu]

Material and sympathetic links for ritual sorcery are Street Magic p28. Honestly, it's nothing that ever comes up in the game, for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It *replaces* the need for a spotter. It's all crazy powerful and only serves to make magic even scarier to mundanes.

[CanRay]

Lol, if everyone can forget I'm on the unawakened side for a moment, I'd like to ask about Rituals.
My GM says that ritual spells can be done using a material from the victim, like voodoo. It says pretty clearly in the core book that you need LOS or a spotter with LOS for rituals. What is he referencing?

He's talking about a Material Link (Street Magic, Page 28.).

Material and sympathetic links for ritual sorcery are Street Magic p28. Honestly, it's nothing that ever comes up in the game, for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It *replaces* the need for a spotter. It's all crazy powerful and only serves to make magic even scarier to mundanes.

Sniped. But, yes, this does replace the need. It's also handy if you have no idea whatsoever where someone is.

It's a good reason to never, ever drink or eat anything at a meet with Mr. Johnson. And, if you have a magician in your group, it's a great reason to lift the silverware/glass if (s)he's stupid enough to do it. There's a spell that increases the duration a link is good for, and if the Johnson screws you too badly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[longbowrocks]

See, I think making it a fight is *limiting* the scope immensely. Mages are good at tons of things, not just killing single opponents; in addition, it encourages building a custom anti-mage to fight him, which is unrealistic.

I'll give utility to the mages. Still arguing combat though.

As above, Edge is expensive and exhaustible. It's not really appropriate to rely on it for this, I feel. Else, we have to let the mage use *his* Edge 6 on everything as well. This is a symptom of the anti-mage problem I mentioned: part of the reason mages shine is that *normal* people have no defense against them. If a specifically anti-mage character has some defense, that doesn't alter the general situation.

Dang, the edge 6 is a good point.
I'm primarily worried about a mage hunting my character down, since all the mage needs to do is score well on 7 billion assensing checks or less to find me, and I need to do some wild stuff to prevent that.
If it's combat on the open field, he who acts first takes the day, and I'm pretty sure a sammie will acts first.

I'm not sure what you're saying about BP. I was saying that you don't need Magic 6 or 9 or whatever to be a powerful Awakened character… at all, really.

Ah, I was just saying that BP is (ironically) more efficient than Karma in the late game, since BP uses constant cost to raise things, whereas Karma cost goes up.

It has to be a Barrier or a Vehicle, yes. Armor is simply different, in magical terms (sorry). In magical terms, clothing and armor is *you*, for LOS.

I'll admit that's rules as intended, and very nearly RAW, but I maintain that there is a loophole in the mechanics (one that makes a measure of sense to boot).

[longbowrocks]

He's talking about a Material Link (Street Magic, Page 28.).

Ty.