[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How do you regain essence? Tell fish stories with excessive embellishment until no one can deny that you're quite the character?

There is a Gene Treatment that will restore lost essence. It is expensive and takes a long time (0.1 Essence Regained per Month, and 20,000 Nuyen/Month after the first month, which costs 70,000 Nuyen).

You really must read Augmentation (along with Arsenal, Unwired and Street Magic). Doing so would answer so many of your questions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

I have read augmentation, but not front to back. I generally skip sections, but I now remember that I glanced at that passage.
Here are the books I've spent some time with, from most read to least read:

1. SR 4A pre errata
2. Runners Companion
3. Augmentation
4. Arsenal
5. SR 4A post errata
6. War!
7. Street magic
8. Attitude

I hadn't even glanced at those last two until yesterday (or today, for attitude).

[Yerameyahu]

It really shows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ggodo]

I never understood why some GMs are fine with mages running arond with a Magic attribute of 12, but would violently object to a cyberzombie PC.

The only thing I can think of is that the mage can hide his talents better, while the cyberzombie is pretty much a walking haze of ick.

[PoliteMan]

How are you going to compare a hacker to a mage?

How do you want to?

I don't want to turn this into Hacker v Mage, more as a proof of concept, so let me me briefly back up and explain how I think each archetype can stand up to the mage.

Hackers: In a wireless world, hackers can manipulate basically any technology. Agents, replicating Worms, and botnets all allow the hacker to manipulate massive amounts of technology (limited basically by the GM and GOD at a certain point). Those require time and resources but with a year and a million nuyen the amount of manipulation you can do is immense. Their abilities are further boosted by the fact that agents and worms can use the same programs, like Exploit, that the hacker uses for himself, specially when you consider that something like rating 10 Stealth is easily achievable at this level. So if you want every car in the city to turn left on Monday at 3:01 and you have replicating worms with Stealth 10, you can.

Riggers have the same basic advantage as hackers, except they only manipulate drones and usually only the drones they own. However, at that level, a rigger can basically have aerial drones patrolling the whole city and an armored company of vehicles and drones rolling down the street. Additionally, they can easily have multiple drones specialized for every situation.

Faces will have tons of contacts and the persuasiveness to get them to do almost anything. I'm not sure whether you allow Faces to get new contacts through karma, roleplaying, money, or some combination of the three but at this level a face should have a booklet of contacts, many in very influential positions. In a very real sense they can do anything because they're best friends with the best hacker, the best mage, the best sam, the best whatever is needed and if they don't know they guy you need, they know a guy who knows that guy.

In a sense, all these mundane archetypes use the same strategy. They can't match a Mage, or a Sam or Adept to an extent, in the pure amount of power in one person. They make up for it by controlling lots of less powerful things to match or exceed the abilities of a mage. Quantity, after all, has a quality all of it's own.

[Yerameyahu]

But, none of those is incompatible with being a mage (especially the Face). Hacker and rigger are pretty non-optimal (especially when you can do spirits instead of drones), but a mage with trodes and some expensive programs is just about as good. Skill is the only difference, and it's only a handful of skills. (And, as above, we're using 'mage' to mean 'awakened characters'; no reason hacker adepts and rigger adepts aren't better than mundanes.)

I'm not saying the mage (even with 'crazy high karma') has enough to do all of these. But he can easily do any of them at least as well, plus all the unique mage tricks.

[PoliteMan]

Totally agree Y

Yes, I totally agree, the ability of awakened characters to use everything a mundane can, even if they pay a significant price, gives any awakened character a significant advantage. A mage can buy a couple drones and play mini-rigger but the reverse is not true. Also, while playing a mundane rigger is nice, an Awakened rigger will probably be better, especially after a couple adventures.

I feel like there's two discussions here and I have two seemingly contradictory opinions.

#1 Do mages outshine everyone else?
No, mages are powerhouses but they're not the only ones.

#2 Do the Awakened in general outshine mundanes?
Yep. It's hard to think of something that magic wouldn't somehow improve.

in other words,
It's not the mages, it's the adepts/mysads!

[Yerameyahu]

It's just such a pain to type 'Awakened characters' every time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree, it's already been the mysads. Projection is a great trick, but still.

[Fortinbras]

I'm not saying the mage (even with 'crazy high karma') has enough to do all of these. But he can easily do any of them at least as well, plus all the unique mage tricks.

By that logic, a hacker can just accumulate 30 Karma and buy the Magician Quality. Now he can easily do all the things a mage can do, plus all the unique hacker tricks. You could say "But now he's a mage," but I maintain that if a mage gets enough tech to be a at least as good as a hacker, then he becomes a Hacker.
The idea that a mage can do everything anyone else does is presupposing that the mage part of him trumps the others. If he has enough tech to be as good a hacker as a normal hacker build, then whose to say he isn't a hacker with magic, as opposed to a mage with a whiz commlink.

If mages or any Awakened are taking over your group, you need to start GMing with the mage in mind. Most runs don't use nearly enough magical resistance compared to Matrix or Street Sam countermeasures, which is where everyone go this idea that playing a mage is the "I Win" button of Shadowrun.
I think this idea came from either number crunching without playtesting, or lazy GMs who don't know how to use BC and Spirits of Man.

In any event, if your first session of character generation involves telling your players "Anyone who plays something other than a mage is an idiot." then you are doing it wrong!

[Seerow]

Re: The Feywear, what exactly is the point of it?

It lets you get a positive quality put into your clothes, but you have to pay a ton of money AND karma for it... where (unless this was also erratad out in a newer version of the book) you can just gain new positive qualities by paying that same amount of karma. Yes, the book says the GM should award the qualities where they make sense blah blah, but Attitude also says that the GM should consider the impact that feyweave will have on his game before allowing a character to get it, so you're having to go through the GM in either scenario to get the quality... it's just with this you have to be wearing specific clothes and pay a bunch of money on top of it.




As to the actual topic: The biggest complaint I have with magical characters is that they do have so much that can't be replicated. As a couple other people have said, there is no concept in the game that couldn't be made better with a splash of magic added to the character for that little extra edge. How much magic you want will vary from character to character, but having magic is always going to be strictly better than not having magic. It also doesn't help that you can't pick up magic post character gen, so if you think there's any chance your character will want some form of magic to complement his skillset somewhere down the line, you want to have at the very least one of the awakened qualities, and just enough magic to not be burnt out with whatever wares you want.

Some things being exclusively magic is okay. Indeed, it's even expected. After all, what kind of mundane effect could turn someone to goo? Or take over someone's mind? But on the other hand, if that's the way it is, you should have more things that are unique to mundanes, and possibly limit the stacking between similar mundane/magical things. After all, why be a Mundane face and just have Tailored Pheromones, when I could be a Mystic Adept Face, who has Tailored Pheromones, Kinescis, Imp Social Skill, Commanding Voice, Cool Resolve, and the ability to cast Increase Attribute (Charisma)? Yes, you probably won't be able to do all of that at character creation, but you could do most of it, and could have all of it within 50-100 karma.

I mean, even a hacker/rigger benefits from dipping into being an adept. You get a couple of cool initiation powers that can help out, and imp tech/vehicle skills to bump your skills above the natural maximums.


Mages themselves are a different story. They're far less dippable, so they don't scream "take this to help out any possible build ever!", but they are still very strong in their own right. While they can be used for complementing other roles (again, the Increase Attribute spell is amazing and is the only way to boost several stats outside of drugs, and there's several spells that support stealthing, gunslinging, etc), Mage's really stick out moreso in what they can do on their own. Their counterspelling is pretty much the only thing that will keep their team as a whole standing when facing other mages, since direct spells have no mundane way to protect against except for very expensive qualities. They can basically spam stunbolt/stunball/manabolt without much fear of drain at all. They can maintain 4 initiative passes with a single spell (can use a force 4 sustaining focus which is relatively cheap to keep it up cheaply). They can turn people to goo, stone, or animals, their pick. They can turn themselves into a critter and wade into melee (not that this really has any benefit in shadowrun, but it is possible, and is an easy way for mages to overcome their typical physical weakness). They can turn invisible and fly. About the only thing a mage can't do is teleport/time travel. The majority of the things listed are things that mages are typically capable of doing competently starting at character generation.

Drain, the mage's intended limiting factor, is pretty easily negated. Between Increase Attribute, and Centering (most mages' first metamagic), and a Centering Focus, it's not really out of the question for a mage to be able to just shrug off drain values as high as 6-8 even at relatively low karma levels. Even a starting mid-op mage should be able to shrug off 4, which covers most force 5-7 spells. With higher karma levels (ie the 400ish karma discussed in this topic) 40 or so drain resist dice isn't out of the question.

And this doesn't even touch on spirits, astral perception, or astral projection, all of which are pretty closely hoarded by the mages, and made prohibitively costly for other characters to touch. (Seriously, a full power point for astral perception? That's ridiculous). These are things that for the most part nobody else has an equivalent to, and Mages give up next to nothing for access to it.


Anyway, at this point I'm more or less rambling, so I'm going to shut up and go to sleep now.

[Irion]

40 or so drain resist dice isn't out of the question.

How do you want to get 40 dices for resisting drain. A character would need to be optimized to get there

[Irion]

40 or so drain resist dice isn't out of the question.

How do you want to get 40 dices for resisting drain. A character would need to be optimized to get there

[Medicineman]

...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree, it's already been the mysads. Projection is a great trick, but still.

Try the Astral Adept (its an Idea from Dumpshock) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with an Astral Dance
Medicineman

[Udoshi]

Off the top of my head?

Assuming hermetic(Will+Log)
Cerebral boosters
Dareadrenaline ( i think. Whichever is)
activated pain editors
Any drug that adds to either WP or Log.
Trauma damper reduces stun drain by 1, after the soak.
Centering metamagic
Some more from the semi-expensive quality that adds to drain resistance.
I think there's a spirit pact that helps here, but I don't recall the exact name.
Bear Mentor MIGHT help, depending on whether your GM lets the +2 physical resist work when Overcasting(which is physical. in this case, also platelet factories).
Random optimizing with attribute mins and maxes with metatypes(mostly dwarf), HMHVV(some give bonuses to mental stats), and SURGE(particularly metagenetic improvement), and the genetic optimization geneware.

I'm not sure 40 is feasable, but you can hella stack stuff that helps with drain.

Did i miss anything?

[Seerow]

How do you want to get 40 dices for resisting drain. A character would need to be optimized to get there

We're talking about a 400 karma character to get to the 40 dice pool. I was thinking something like a grade 10 initiate (which is 163 of the 400 karma), with a say moderate force 6 Centering Focus (36 more karma), and a quickened Imp Attribute Logic/Willpower (force 5, getting both stats to the 9 maximum) is up to 206 karma spent, and has 34 dice to throw at drain resist already. Bumping that focus up to Force 12 (we can have up to force 30 in foci bound, more if magic gets raised above 6 at all) it gets the 40 I specified, but that's investing pretty heavily. Udoshi listed plenty of other ways to resist drain further without needing such a high force foci, but most don't actually add to the dice pool, but rather just lets you shrug off drain.

The quickening is pretty rough if your GM is prone to dispelling. If that's the case you can instead opt towards sustaining foci (again counting towards that max force though), or quickening it at a much higher force. For example overcast to force 10 and put in the doubled karma, and roll 26+ (the + being any extra magic or power focii) dice on any counterspelling test, and make the person attempting to dispell it most likely have to eat physical drain with most likely far fewer dice to resist than you. (actually at force 10 it's still only 3 drain, so bump that overcasting on up to say force 16, making the drain 6P, something you can shrug off easily, but anyone looking to dispell you will likely need to worry about. And after eating a few points of physical drain without getting any net successes towards dispelling, most people will just give up and try another tactic)

[longbowrocks]

(again, the Increase Attribute spell is amazing and is the only way to boost several stats outside of drugs, and there's several spells that support stealthing, gunslinging, etc),

Adrenaline pump, which also allows you to ignore stun. No addiction, so not a drug.

[Summerstorm]

Eugh... all good and fine. But just loading up with a huge centering focus (if you have the karma for it) would be enough, i guess. No need to make it too complicated.

[Seerow]

Adrenaline pump, which also allows you to ignore stun. No addiction, so not a drug.

Um... yeah, but the part of my post you quoted there was talking about what Mages can do that other people can't. An adrenaline pump doesn't give you extra Will/Charisma/Intuition, which are all exclusively raised either by drugs or the spell.

[longbowrocks]

Can someone come up with a MysAd optimised for damage using sniper rifles on 400 BP? You should leech every point of dice pool or DV you can out of the rules, including edge. Don't bother spending on any defense, and show how many BP you used. If I can't think of a competing mundane sniper build, It'll at least give me something to think about.

[Seerow]

Can someone come up with a MysAd optimised for damage using sniper rifles on 400 BP? You should leech every point of dice pool or DV you can out of the rules, including edge. Don't bother spending on any defense, and show how many BP you used. If I can't think of a competing mundane sniper build, It'll at least give me something to think about.

Take whatever you'd give to the mundane sniper, then add on 3 extra dice from Imp Combat Skill, then add on Hawkeye (no range modifiers and no need to take a aim action).

It's really pretty much that simple. Your mundane sniper will have at most 7 ranks, and will constantly be taking range modifiers, or re-aiming every time his target moves. The mystic adept sniper gets 10 ranks, for 3 extra dice, and no need to waste that extra action. (This is also potentially even more important if your modifiers are enough to risk hitting cap, if that optional rule is used, though I don't see how you could manage that. dicepool cap for mundane is (9+7 )*2 = 32 for the mundane and (9+10)*2 = 38 for the adept)


There are of course other benefits (invisibility, detection spells, imp physical skill, etc), but you said to only list straight up offensive benefits for sniping and not worry about defensive benefits at all.

[longbowrocks]

Hawkeye (no range modifiers and no need to take a aim action).

I'm a fan of the hawkeye quality, so let me fix that for you:
it reduces the range increment by one step, and gives you a bonus die for perception tests over a distance.

Take whatever you'd give to the mundane sniper, then add on 3 extra dice from Imp Combat Skill, then add on Hawkeye (no range modifiers and no need to take a aim action).

It's really pretty much that simple. Your mundane sniper will have at most 7 ranks, and will constantly be taking range modifiers, or re-aiming every time his target moves. The mystic adept sniper gets 10 ranks, for 3 extra dice, and no need to waste that extra action. (This is also potentially even more important if your modifiers are enough to risk hitting cap, if that optional rule is used, though I don't see how you could manage that. dicepool cap for mundane is (9+7 )*2 = 32 for the mundane and (9+10)*2 = 38 for the adept)


There are of course other benefits (invisibility, detection spells, imp physical skill, etc), but you said to only list straight up offensive benefits for sniping and not worry about defensive benefits at all.

So you took hawk eye and mysAd for 5+10 BP, then I assume you added exceptional attribute for 20 BP, capping you out at 35.
The mundane took exceptional attribute for 20 BP, and hawkeye for 5, then added 2X restricted gear to start with rating 4 muscle toner and the barett. that's 1 less die than you, but 2 more DV. since DV counts for approximately 3X what dice count for if you are already nearly guaranteed to hit, that's undoubtedly better than the MysAd.
The hook is that you're investing in skills that don't always give optimal returns. I'm banking on the idea that the points you invest in magic and qualities at creation will set you back more than they aid you.
Can somebody please give this a serious try?
In the meantime...

[Irion]

@longbowrocks

then added 2X restricted gear to start with rating 4 muscle toner and the barett.

All stuff you are able to pick up on the second or third run.
Why should I pay precious BP for stuff I get later on anyway. Stuff like a Synaptic Booster 2 is something to think about.
But for muscle toner? Why not just get level two, second hand an pick the level 4 thing as alpha Ware later on.

Nobody is agruing, that ware from the start is better than magic. But this changes over time. Magic is raised, ware is replaced.
If you start with a level two, second hand muscletoner replacing it with a level 4 muscle toner alpha costs the same as replacing a level 4 muscle toner.
So after a few runs, all you achieved was wasting BP on restricted gear. Same goes for the barret. (

So yes, you are better for maybe 4 runs (maybe 5). After that the adept is closing in and later on leaving you behind.
He will have an higher peception pool, he will have an higher Pool for shooting and so on. You might be able to get some additional skills. (Not if you really try to keep up and raise Perception and Rifle to 7)

It gets even worse if you play with initiations giving power points.
The adept will probably start with around 3 points of essence loss. (If we are looking at, lets say, 1.8 Points of bioware, he can easy but another point of Cyber in, without question. Keeping him medium cybered making it possible to get around cyberware scanners, since bioware is hard to detect and the cyberare needed is legal (cybereyes etc.)
The question pending is, if he has raised is magic to 5 or only to 4. Depending on the question if he could invest the BP for better deals.
So yes, he will be down 45 BP front up. (Not so much if he is using second hand ware and keeping the prices down)
For this he only gets +1 to the rifle skill. (which would cost aour sam 14BP or later on 7*2+20=32 Karma)
Well, there are also 0.5 Powerpoints left. So if we go for improved perception and improved sence (smell possibly) you would neede a cyber nose to get after that and the skill would cost you another (considering the skill is 4) 10 Karma or 4 BP.
But since Karma will be awarded the adept will get another power point for 10 Karma.
Well, this means you would need to increase your perception to 6 costing anohter 12 Karma.
Freefall is also incredibal useful for a sniper. To get it with cyberware you need two cyberlegs. Well, the cyberware is better, no question about that.
But it makes the character easyier to detect.
And everything goes from bad to worse, if the adpet picks up his first initiation an takes Aura masking. Now he can walk as a "mundane" char, while your char will always be checked by magic security (heavy cyber enhancements).

So everything in your development will be sort of a tradeoff, while the adept gets pure improvement over time.
He will replace his second hand stuff with alpha or even better thus getting more ware. (Keeping magical healing simple, keeping a "normal" look (Cyberware scanners, Assensing)
Even more if he gets stuff like masking. (Here I am not sure if it is possible to mask ware, for it is not said)

(While your sniper can be identified by his aura)

It gets better if the adept is forced to pay 5*5= 25 Karma for raising his Magic from 1(4) to 2(5) ( actual value(value without considering essence loss))
Then yes, a mundane sniper may keep up for a time.

[Scyldemort]

And everything goes from bad to worse, if the adpet picks up his first initiation an takes Aura masking. Now he can walk as a "mundane" char, while your char will always be checked by magic security (heavy cyber enhancements).

So everything in your development will be sort of a tradeoff, while the adept gets pure improvement over time.
He will replace his second hand stuff with alpha or even better thus getting more ware. (Keeping magical healing simple, keeping a "normal" look (Cyberware scanners, Assensing)
Even more if he gets stuff like masking. (Here I am not sure if it is possible to mask ware, for it is not said)

(While your sniper can be identified by his aura)

It gets better if the adept is forced to pay 5*5= 25 Karma for raising his Magic from 1(4) to 2(5) ( actual value(value without considering essence loss))
Then yes, a mundane sniper may keep up for a time.

Street Magic, pg. 53:
"Adepts may learn Divining, Psychometry, and Sensing, as well as the exclusive metamag-ics of Adept Centering, Attunement (Animal and Item), Cognition, Empower Animal, Infusion and Somatic Control, which are available only to adepts and mystical adepts."

So about those Adepts with Aura Masking... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Yeah, mystic adept can take it. Still had to be said. Note that mystic adepts are the redheaded stepchildren of the awakened world. "Hey kids, want to be bad at spellcasting and have subpar physical abilities at the same time? Now you can!"

[Scyldemort]

As far as I know you cannot mask ware. Also note that Masking uses Intuition + Magic + Initiation Grade vs Assesning + Intuition. With a magic attrinute of 1 or 2, good luck with that.

[Irion]

Alright did not know that Aura masking is off limit for adepts.
If you go with intuition 4, Magic 2 Initiation 1 you end up with about 7 dices. That also about the assensing pool early game.
(With a few Karma it is getting better and better)