[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Force 8-10 spells, not 8-10 different spells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Pretty sure from Context that Irion was talking about 8-10 Spells, Not Force. He did say that it was not worth Quickening any Spell of less than Force 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Could be wrong though.

Still, Having to replace a Force 8-10 Spell each time it was brought down would get crazy expensive with Karma, Real Fast. Increasingly so with each additional Spell above the first.

[longbowrocks]

Despite what I said Longbow you really should add Matrix to the list of things non-Awakened can do better. An Awakened trying to be a hacker usually ends up a one-trick pony and surrenders that versatility we've been talking about. This is the main situation where a mundane ends up being more versatile than the Awakened (but not TMs).

Thanks for the support for mundanes. I can see how technomancers and hackers would beat magic users in the matrix. On the other hand, I'm pretty fixated on combat at the moment.

Also, aren't technomancers awakened? There's no way they count as mundane, seeing as definitively mundane people cannot replicate a technomancer's abilities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@ The Matrix: Physad/MysAd hackers are actually pretty good hackers and are super coders. If you are making a non-0.01 Essence hacker you are usually better off playing a Physad. Magic and the Matrix actually gets even funnier if you GM is stupid enough to use the Logic + Skill capped by program optional rules instead of basic rules.

Nothing Stupid about that rule at all. In fact, I quite like it. It makes the Hacker actually mean something, rather than having the Hacker (using the basic system) with the Logic of 1, which I have seen. There is no reason to have a Logic higher than 1 for hacking in the basic ruleset.

And an optimized Hacker will likely have enough ware in him to completely negate the benefits of the Adept's magic. I will admit to really wanting the ability to Multitask, that the Adept can acquire, but that is really about it. And though you cannot bypass that limit with ware (though you can come close, at least fluff wise), the Adept will likely not have 3-4 passses in the Meat, as well as 5 in the Matrix.

[Seerow]

My guess would be that the Feywear and the Magic Resistant Quality would stack. Don't know, though, as I have yet to get Attitude.

Can you buy the same quality twice to gain double the benefit? Feyware per Attitude is an item that grants a quality, I can't imagine a quality stacking with itself.

This is False. You can purchase Latent Awakening, and pick up Magic later in the game. I have even heard of some GM's allowing the purchase of Magic after play starts without having the Latent Awakening Quality. Post Character generation, this does cost an amount of Karma, but it is also a viable solution.

Latent Awakening gives you 1 Magic, and if when it activates you have used any essence at all, you're an instant burnout, unless there's something I missed.

Hacker/Riggers are better as Technomancers than they would be as a Mage. Of course, The Hacker I play (A Massively modded CyberLogician) still often runs rings around the Technomancer in the Group. There are things that he does better (Spooof comes to mind, since that is his specialty), but when Hacking, The CyberLogician often finds and hacks the systems long before the technomancer does. His only Benefit is that he can Thread CF's to 14 when he really wants a High Threhold Cap, where I have to Use Edge. (We use the optional rule of Skill + Attribute, capped by Program/CF Rating). A Mage will never outshine the Hacker, though an Adept might come close.

I dunno, my group shies away from technomancers so I'm not particularly familiar with what they are capable of, but from what I've read they seem to be very hit and miss. Especially with that houserule, where you're just increasing your threshold, and the adept is throwing 3 extra dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yes, Mages are Powerful, and yes, they are very versatile. Can they outshine the Unawakened? Yes, if the GM is not on his game, they can indeed. Is it a forgone conclusion? I do not think so. It takes a very large amount of karma for a Mundane to have nothing else to spend on, Skill and Attribute Caps notwithstanding. The Mage will likely spend all of his karma on magical increases of one type or another. The balance is not as slim as it seems.

A straight up mage will be very versatile, with high magic etc, and has different ways to counter it that need to be put in just for the mage.

An adept on the other hand will basically always be better than a mundane at his specialization. Even if there is nothing else in the power list to support the specialization, the 3 higher skill cap will do it.

And at that point you are not really better than a starting mage who has 12 Drain Dice. You have yet to increase any Magic, buy any new spells, purchase any Sustaining Foci, raise your casting Skills, or anything else that would make a good mage excel at his job. But you can sure soak that Drain down. Get real here Seerow. What you are proposing is not a true, viable character in the game world.

Really? The character in question has 10 initiate grades, this means he has 9 metamagics besides centering, and most of those also scale from initiate grade. Just being a grade 10 initiate is a pretty huge deal that does a lot more for you than drain resistance. And you still have nearly 200 more karma to increase magic further, or pick up more foci (for example a solid power foci could be more efficient than a straight up magic increasing. You have a ton of drain resistance so you can overcast to a relatively high force without worrying too much, thus lowering some of the benefit of higher magic).

The only karma spent ONLY on drain is the 10 karma on quickening 2 force 5 spells.

Any good Ward will take down a Quickened Spell more often than not (Happened a few times in our game at least), and that does not require any dispelling. Yes, you may be able to pass thorugh the Wards with Masking and Extended Masking metamagics, but then again, you may not. Are you willing to take that chance with high karma quickened spells?

There was a choice between a low karma quickened spell for a situation where dispelling and high force wards aren't frequent, and high karma quickened spells if they are. High Karma quickened spells aren't going to be taken down by wards anywhere near as often. A Force 6 barrier has 12 dice to throw at it. Your force 5 quickened spell may only have 11+ dice to throw at it, by a force 16 overcasted spell has 22+ dice (the plus being any extra karma invested in it and any extra magic raising or force foci)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Foki can be destroyed too. As a matter of fact it is quite easy. Depending on the foci a unwilling bath is enough to kill it. (A fireball would kill it anyway considering the barrier ratings)

Feasible, but not as easy as you would think. I cannot remember the last time that a Focus was destroyed by happenstance (it is generally a plot element). I have seen many Quickened spells fall to the vagaries of implemented Wards, however. They are not equal in any fashion whatsoever. Foci are MUCH more valuable than a Quickened spell in my opinion.

Besides, using your logic, a human would never survive the effects of the Fireball either. If a Human can survive the effect, his Foci should have no real issue with it. Obviously, something is wrong with your example.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Also, aren't technomancers awakened? There's no way they count as mundane, seeing as definitively mundane people cannot replicate a technomancer's abilities.

Any creature with a Magic attribute is Awakened, any creature with a Ressonance attribute is Emerged.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@longbowrocks
Comparing a pure SAM to a pure adept, the Sam will be ahead for a long time.
(Maybe even forever)
But with the very soft rules on magic loss thorugh ware an adept is able to go both ways and gets the best of both worlds. Yes, he first has to pay to enter but it will pay out soon.

Mystic adepts only work if you allow certain "tricks" with adept powers.

I think Mystic Adepts work out Great, even without any tricks...

[longbowrocks]

Besides, using your logic, a human would never survive the effects of the Fireball either. If a Human can survive the effect, his Foci should have no real issue with it. Obviously, something is wrong with your example.

I think he was going by the rules. Handheld object frequently have structure ratings of 1 due to their size, and as for armor/barrier rating, I hardly expect your focus to be made of reinforced concrete or diamond.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can you buy the same quality twice to gain double the benefit? Feyware per Attitude is an item that grants a quality, I can't imagine a quality stacking with itself.

Yeah, I do not know. But you can get Qualities and gear that do the same thing and they stack. So... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Latent Awakening gives you 1 Magic, and if when it activates you have used any essence at all, you're an instant burnout, unless there's something I missed.

Nope, you missed it. Your Magic is a 1, and your Maximum Magic is 6- Essence Loss, You can raise your magic from there, and Initiations will increase your MAximum MAgic Attribute as normal.

I dunno, my group shies away from technomancers so I'm not particularly familiar with what they are capable of, but from what I've read they seem to be very hit and miss. Especially with that houserule, where you're just increasing your threshold, and the adept is throwing 3 extra dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Technomancer can rule the School eventually, and and Adept will never keep up.

A straight up mage will be very versatile, with high magic etc, and has different ways to counter it that need to be put in just for the mage.

An adept on the other hand will basically always be better than a mundane at his specialization. Even if there is nothing else in the power list to support the specialization, the 3 higher skill cap will do it.

Yes, a mage is very versatile, No arguments.
An Adept, all other things being equal, will still potentially have +3 Dice.

Really? The character in question has 10 initiate grades, this means he has 9 metamagics besides centering, and most of those also scale from initiate grade. Just being a grade 10 initiate is a pretty huge deal that does a lot more for you than drain resistance. And you still have nearly 200 more karma to increase magic further, or pick up more foci (for example a solid power foci could be more efficient than a straight up magic increasing. You have a ton of drain resistance so you can overcast to a relatively high force without worrying too much, thus lowering some of the benefit of higher magic).

The only karma spent ONLY on drain is the 10 karma on quickening 2 force 5 spells.

But that Grade 10 Initiate MUST have a minimum Magic of 10 to go with it, otherwise he cannot be a Grade 10 Initiate. You can only have a number of Initiate Grades equal to magic rating. You may have a number of Metamagic techniques equal to your Magic + Initiate Grade. So, to get 10 grades of Initiation, you have spent HUGE amounts of Karma (minimum of 170 on Magic, Assuming you started at Magic 6, and an additional 164 for the Initiations: Total of 334 Karma Expenditure) on nothing else . Nothing at all. So you are really not all that much better than a mage who is fresh out of Character Generation. You will have more options, to be sure, but you will not be significantly more powerful overall.

There was a choice between a low karma quickened spell for a situation where dispelling and high force wards aren't frequent, and high karma quickened spells if they are. High Karma quickened spells aren't going to be taken down by wards anywhere near as often. A Force 6 barrier has 12 dice to throw at it. Your force 5 quickened spell may only have 11+ dice to throw at it, by a force 16 overcasted spell has 22+ dice (the plus being any extra karma invested in it and any extra magic raising or force foci)

Which all take MORE resources to get there, oppn top of your already ludicrous spellcaster, who is not much better than the newb off the street casting wise.

[Rasumichin]

@Cyberzombies: It used to be insanely rare and a difficult procedure to get. With SR4 they made it just a matter of time before you get it so now there is nothing really stopping a PC. But back in the day you used to have to suck Lowfyr's cock before you could get the treatment. Now that Delta clinics are everywhere (there used to be 5 in the whole world) if a PC saves up the money I'd let him.

Not every delta clinic offers cybermancy. There's still only about a dozen institutions that include cybermancers among their staff, but the procedure has indeed become a good deal more common, more reliable and also more powerful than in previous editions.

I'd still require to call in a few favors to get the treatment, but it shouldn't be that much more difficult than getting into a standard delta clinic (which is only a Tr 24 Availability test away).

[Yerameyahu]

Tymeaus, if they have Latent Awakening, they're an Awakened character for our purposes; buying Magician later is pure GM houseruling. Technomancers are equivalent to Awakened. They're not mundane.

The mage doesn't have to worry about BC/Wards/astral threats if he doesn't 'go astral'. Again, he can have all the abilities and gear of a mundane… plus the magic, when desired. They do have unique drawbacks (thank god!), but hardly crippling.

Not that it's a major issue, but the question of 'who's the defender, spell or ward?' sounds far from clear.

Is cybermancy *really* that common now? :/ I don't think it's relevant, though. Cyberzombies are NPC-only, and they're a huge threat to everyone (mage or not). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

But that Grade 10 Initiate MUST have a minimum Magic of 10 to go with it, otherwise he cannot be a Grade 10 Initiate. You can only have a number of Initiate Grades equal to magic rating. You may have a number of Metamagic techniques equal to your Magic + Initiate Grade. So, to get 10 grades of Initiation, you have spent HUGE amounts of Karma (minimum of 170 on Magic, Assuming you started at Magic 6, and an additional 164 for the Initiations: Total of 334 Karma Expenditure) on nothing else . Nothing at all. So you are really not all that much better than a mage who is fresh out of Character Generation. You will have more options, to be sure, but you will not be significantly more powerful overall.

Those 10 grades of iniation can alos give you +20 dice for counterspelling and allow you to absorb incoming spells completely up to about force 6 ( if they use higher force spells you just reduce it by 6 or so)
witch also allows you to reduce your next spells drain by 6, allowing you to cast pretty damm high force spells when combined with those 40 resistance dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, if they have Latent Awakening, they're an Awakened character for our purposes; buying Magician later is pure GM houseruling. Technomancers are equivalent to Awakened. They're not mundane.

The mage doesn't have to worry about BC/Wards/astral threats if he doesn't 'go astral'. Again, he can have all the abilities and gear of a mundane… plus the magic, when desired. They do have unique drawbacks (thank god!), but hardly crippling.

Not that it's a major issue, but the question of 'who's the defender, spell or ward?' sounds far from clear.

Is cybermancy *really* that common now? :/ I don't think it's relevant, though. Cyberzombies are NPC-only, and they're a huge threat to everyone (mage or not). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

They are not awakened until they actually AWAKEN. Come on Yerameyahu, you know that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And yes, Allowing purchase after the fact is a house rule. Not one we use, but I have heard of others that allow it. Technomancers are not awakened. Not sure why you would think so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mages always have to worry about Background Count and Wards. ALWAYS. Whether or not they are actually active in Astral Space. Not sure why you would think differently there Yerameyahu. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Cybermancy is more common than it used to be, but not really that common, no.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Those 10 grades of iniation can alos give you +20 dice for counterspelling and allow you to absorb incoming spells completely up to about force 6 ( if they use higher force spells you just reduce it by 6 or so)
witch also allows you to reduce your next spells drain by 6, allowing you to cast pretty damm high force spells when combined with those 40 resistance dice.

Sure, if you actually have any spells to cast with... The premise of the 400 Karma Character was eaten up by all of the Initiating. So, you just have your starting spells for the most part. Your target can only be so dead after all. And it is far easier to do with mundane resources than magical ones.

In my opinion, the mage spent that wad of karma for no reason, and I would never want such an inept character with my team. Give me the Magic 4 (Starting Character), Initate Grade 3 (29 Karma) mage with 50 (250 Karma) Spells anyday... He spent 279 Karma out of the ionitial 400, has 121 Karma Left, and will be infintely more useful. That monstrosity that is being hypothesized is useless as far as I am concerned.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say they were awakened, fullstop. I said they're awakened for our purposes. And I didn't say Technomancers were awakened. I said they were equivalent. For a thread specifically about awakened vs. mundane? Come on, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

No, they don't. Without active foci, quickened spells, etc., they can walk right through like anyone else. Are you thinking of Dual-Natured critters?

I don't understand why you're acting like I'm the crazy one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cheops]

In my opinion, the mage spent that wad of karma for no reason, and I would never want such an inept character with my team. Give me the Magic 4 (Starting Character), Initate Grade 3 (29 Karma) mage with 50 (250 Karma) Spells anyday... He spent 279 Karma out of the ionitial 400, has 121 Karma Left, and will be infintely more useful. That monstrosity that is being hypothesized is useless as far as I am concerned.

Amen brother. 50 spells make you the christmas tree full of golf bags of utility. Wreck Drone, Urban Renewal (Guns), most Detection spells, most Manipulation spells, and some Illusion/Health to round it out. Booyah. You could get a Force 10 ally spirit with that 121 Karma and still have karma left.

Ahh...just checked Augmentation again. I thought that medical care table included Cybermancy in the footnotes. My bad. Delta is still ridiculously easy to get in this edition making it damn nigh infinitely more accessible for PCs to zombie. No more needing to roll 20's and 30's on you d6 for availability anymore. <sigh> Takes a lot of the wonder and fun out of the high end gear.

[Yerameyahu]

Is that an argument that awakened characters outshine, or not? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The power of having many spells is a major asset of a spellcasting character (even with a more reasonable number, like 20).

[Mäx]

Delta is still ridiculously easy to get in this edition making it damn nigh infinitely more accessible for PCs to zombie.

Actually it's pretty hard to make a cyber zombie out of delta ware, becouse you need so damm many different pieces of ware to get into sub zero essence.

[Irion]

So, to get 10 grades of Initiation, you have spent HUGE amounts of Karma (minimum of 170 on Magic, Assuming you started at Magic 6, and an additional 164 for the Initiations: Total of 334 Karma Expenditure)

Just out of curiosity: Initiation cost 10+*level* x 3 doesn't it?
So you would end up with: 10*10+55*3=100+165=265 Karma (with all discounts you end up with 173 Karma (always round up!))
You might have already calculated the discount but for that you need to join a group for an additional 5 Karma.
So you end up with a least 178 Karma for initiation alone. Ad to this the cost of Magic 170.
You will end up with 348 used karma leaving you 52 for the rest.
Yes I know Initiations get better the more you got, because you get +1 to even more.
And you have no direct benefits. No ally spirit, not even a focus, no quickend spells. etc.
Sorry, but from a PG point of few there is nothing usefull in getting Magic 10 for 50 Karma.

[longbowrocks]

Delta is still ridiculously easy to get in this edition making it damn nigh infinitely more accessible for PCs to zombie.

Are you talking about deltaware in general? Because I have no idea how the 1 mil required for delta wired reflexes 3 counts as "easy".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I didn't say they were awakened, fullstop. I said they're awakened for our purposes. And I didn't say Technomancers were awakened. I said they were equivalent. For a thread specifically about awakened vs. mundane? Come on, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Okay, point taken... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, they don't. Without active foci, quickened spells, etc., they can walk right through like anyone else. Are you thinking of Dual-Natured critters?

Actaully, the point being argued was that the spellcaster just had to buff his quickened spells to such a point that they could ignore any BCG or Wards. My counter to that was that that was Crap... Yes, if there are no spells active, and no Foci Active, then they are treated as a mundane. I Never actually argued that point. My contention is that the proposed character with the 10 Initiate Grades and the 8-10 Quickened Spells was ludicrous, because it could not function the way it was being presented. That is all...

I don't understand why you're acting like I'm the crazy one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Aren't you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Sorry if I was ruffling feathers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I never use quickened spells in the first place, so that's someone else's argument to deal with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And no, you know well enough that you're the crazy one!

[Irion]

Actually it's pretty hard to make a cyber zombie out of delta ware, becouse you need so damm many different pieces of ware to get into sub zero essence.

Full body replacement (6.25) + Move by wire 3(5) + Cybereyes(0.5) + Cyberears (0.5) and you are home
Together 12.25 divided by two is 6.125.
Well, but I have to admit it is harder to get lower. Because now the slots of the bodyparts need to be filled. This will be getting damn expensive.
(If you want some usefull cyberlegs you are paying hell)
Not to mention the maintance you would need to "function".
(If you use essence saving qualities, genetics and get the bio version of the implants too, yes then you won't make it without getting the hole damn two books . Using cyber suites is a no go too.)

While possible in theorie, it is highly inefficient. You get nothing you would not get cheaper with 4 Points of Bio and 3 Points of Cyber. (5.5 Essence)
Getting deeper than essence -4 I think it is not even possible if you use the essence saving stuff.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just out of curiosity: Initiation cost 10+*level* x 3 doesn't it?
So you would end up with: 10*10+55*3=100+165=265 Karma (with all discounts you end up with 173 Karma (always round up!))
You might have already calculated the discount but for that you need to join a group for an additional 5 Karma.
So you end up with a least 178 Karma for initiation alone. Ad to this the cost of Magic 170.
You will end up with 348 used karma leaving you 52 for the rest.
Yes I know Initiations get better the more you got, because you get +1 to even more.
And you have no direct benefits. No ally spirit, not even a focus, no quickend spells. etc.
Sorry, but from a PG point of few there is nothing usefull in getting Magic 10 for 50 Karma.

I did the math for each level individually, not as a group, which makes a difference.
8+10+12+14+15+17+19+21+23+24= 163, +5 (Group Cost) =168 (Group and Ordeal Discounts of 40%)... Added to the 170 becomes 338. So you are off by 10 points.

And yes... No direct benefits other than initiation... which is poor character crafting indeed.
And you do not get Magic 10 for 50 Karma... you get it for 170 Karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I never use quickened spells in the first place, so that's someone else's argument to deal with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And no, you know well enough that you're the crazy one!

I never use them either... waste of points in my opinion.
And, I prefer the term Unique... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)