[X] My Assistant

[CanRay]

This is Shadowrun, if you're having a One-On-One fight, you're doing it wrong.

Bring friends. Make sure they bring their rifles. And drones. And spirits. And sprites. And that annoying AI that lives in the Pixie's CommLink. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[KCKitsune]

Adrenaline rush, which a mage can't buy (a MysAd can. Barely).
Also, Reaction is primarily a sammie attribute, Intuition can equally be bought by mage or sammie, and sammies don't need to give up magic to augment these with 'ware.

I know that most people when they play mages go for the "Pure" route... I am of the firm belief that is stupid. The character I posted has two points of 'Ware. Why, you may ask. The reason I put the 'Ware on him is that he has to keep up and normal humans (and unaugmented mages) are squishies waiting to get cacked. I put on a Synaptic Booster on him because I didn't want to go last all the time. The rest... fluff. The metagaming reason is the fact that it is much better to take the hit in Magic in the beginning than to take the hit later on.

I also don't have to worry about background count shutting down my magic. If I need dakka I got a slivergun for lots of dakka, and a grenade pistol for big boom dakka. I have enough skill and 'Ware that I'm not crippled when I hit a high BC area. Am I outgunning the Sammy... no way in hell! Does the Sammy have to carry my sorry hoop all over the place... not as much as a Squishy an unaugmented mage.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, I'm not the one who specified 'really high karma' for comparison. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It throws the whole question for a loop to just assume a few hundred karma, but that's what the OP wanted.

Oh, I know... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the campaign is going to go much over ~250 though, the GM might want to institute a cash for karma rule since the unawakened characters will eventually run out of things they want to spend karma on.

I don't know. My Cyberlogician is sitting at 318 karma, and I have MANY skills (Skill Levels) I still want to purchase, as most of them are 3 or lower. That with 81 Skills already on the sheet...

[Scyldemort]

People keep mentioning that Mages can use metamagic to ignore Background Count. Once again, this is only half true. Mages can use metamagic to ignore a Positive Background Count. Nothing and No One can ignore a Negative Background Count.

[Cheops]

Most urban background counts are going to be positive. So not too big a deal there.

1 v 1: Mage takes Extended Detect Enemy spell and a sustaining focus 5. That gives him a range of 250 meters assuming Magic 5, Force 5. That's 2 city blocks away. Street Sam doesn't have enough time to perceive everything between him and the mage before the mage can Invisibility and walk into a cafe. Mage stands next to the ficus plant and waits for the street sam to pass. Casts Control Actions to get the street sam to start randomly firing into pedestrians. Cleanses the cafe to get rid of his astral signature. Sits back and sips his latte while the Star comes to slaughter the street sam.

Requires Magic 5, 3 spells, sustaining focus 5, 1 initiation with cleansing metamagic. Easily doable.

[Summerstorm]

Eh, you can clean out your own spells without cleansing (It just makes it faster). You just need a few more rounds time *g*.

Also you can overcast. No need to get as high as 5 magic for this (except the dude has MASSIVE willpower and such)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Most urban background counts are going to be positive. So not too big a deal there.

1 v 1: Mage takes Extended Detect Enemy spell and a sustaining focus 5. That gives him a range of 250 meters assuming Magic 5, Force 5. That's 2 city blocks away. Street Sam doesn't have enough time to perceive everything between him and the mage before the mage can Invisibility and walk into a cafe. Mage stands next to the ficus plant and waits for the street sam to pass. Casts Control Actions to get the street sam to start randomly firing into pedestrians. Cleanses the cafe to get rid of his astral signature. Sits back and sips his latte while the Star comes to slaughter the street sam.

Requires Magic 5, 3 spells, sustaining focus 5, 1 initiation with cleansing metamagic. Easily doable.

And you do not even need Cleansing to accomplish that. Just a few complex actions to remove the signatures. So no need for an Initiation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: Damn... Ninja'd by Summerstorm

[longbowrocks]

I'm back for a bit.

1 v 1: Mage takes Extended Detect Enemy spell and a sustaining focus 5. That gives him a range of 250 meters assuming Magic 5, Force 5. That's 2 city blocks away. Street Sam doesn't have enough time to perceive everything between him and the mage before the mage can Invisibility and walk into a cafe. Mage stands next to the ficus plant and waits for the street sam to pass. Casts Control Actions to get the street sam to start randomly firing into pedestrians. Cleanses the cafe to get rid of his astral signature. Sits back and sips his latte while the Star comes to slaughter the street sam.

Requires Magic 5, 3 spells, sustaining focus 5, 1 initiation with cleansing metamagic. Easily doable.

I'm glad he assumes a sammie doesn't have ultrasound vision (which is not based on any electromagnetic spectrum). Easy kill when a mage walks in front of you and makes funny faces assuming he's invincible/invisible.
Also, you probably want improved invisibility so I can't see you with other light based visions through my (technological) goggles.

[longbowrocks]

This is Shadowrun, if you're having a One-On-One fight, you're doing it wrong.

Bring friends. Make sure they bring their rifles. And drones. And spirits. And sprites. And that annoying AI that lives in the Pixie's CommLink. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yeah, kind of an artificial situation, but then it's not really awakened _ vs unawakened sammy.

[PoliteMan]

@PoliteMan

Well to have an example I would take the 400/1.000.000 one. What are the other conditions? Just a mage with 400BP 400 Karma and 1.000.000 nuyen?
How would you like to compare the two characters.

Ok, I'll agree to 400 Karma/1,000,000 Nuyen. I'll post a mundane Hacker (give me some time), although I'd like to see some other people post builds for a Rigger, Face (Pornomancer), or whatever else they think stands up. For the record, I do consider that the "Power Four": Face, Hacker, Mage, and Rigger, in that order.

Also, how broken are we going for here. Are we out to shatter the system? Personally, I'd prefer a gentlemen's agreement where we both make reasonable characters instead of optimized munchkins, but I'm willing to go broke.

I think just showing the characters would be enough, since I'm only trying to prove that mundanes can compete with mages at that level but, depending on the level of optimization, I'd be willing to consider the following challenges:
#1 First one to conquer the world
#2 First one to destroy the world (ok, physical destruction is actually very difficult, lets settle for the extermination of, say, 90% of all life on Earth)
#3 First one to get 1 trillion Nuyen
#4 Battle to the death, one character starts in Hong Kong, the other in Seattle, and all they get is the other's name
#5 First one to learn what Llowfyr had for breakfast on April 1st
#6 First one to win the UCAS presidency
#7 First one to kill Clockwork and deliver his head to Netcat
#8 First one to capture a powerful toxic shaman and deliver him alive
#9 A game of chess
#10 First one to steal Damien Knight's dirty underwear.

[Cheops]

I'm back for a bit.


I'm glad he assumes a sammie doesn't have ultrasound vision (which is not based on any electromagnetic spectrum). Easy kill when a mage walks in front of you and makes funny faces assuming he's invincible/invisible.
Also, you probably want improved invisibility so I can't see you with other light based visions through my (technological) goggles.

You still need to notice me from 2 blocks away out of the massive amount of moving targets. We may not have even established LOS when my spell spots you (we could be on different streets). I am spotting you from 250 meters away and ambushing you without any chance of you even knowing I am there.

Throw in Shapechange instead of the Invisibility and now your fancy ultrasound thinks I am a pigeon hanging out with my pigeon buddies. Not as cool because I have to peck at seeds instead of sipping my coffee but technically even more difficult to spot.

[Irion]

How are you going to compare a hacker to a mage?

[longbowrocks]

FEYWARE
Get it aspected to the Magic Resistance quality at max level, 200,000 nuyen and 40 karma gets you +4 dice on all magic resistance tests. This is, of course, a terrible solution that probably costs more than it's worth, but it does exist.

What book is this from?

HAVEN LILIES
You can go for Haven Lilies early on against Magicians (requires two initiation grades to be able to negate a positive background count), and you can ALWAYS use Haven Lilies against Adepts. "Hey Adepts, you know those power points that fuel your powers? Lose three of them. I choose which."

Are these similar to the astrally active ivy from RC?

and TUNGSTEN BULLETS.
aren't these AP bullets?

[eyeBliss]

You still need to notice me from 2 blocks away out of the massive amount of moving targets. We may not have even established LOS when my spell spots you (we could be on different streets). I am spotting you from 250 meters away and ambushing you without any chance of you even knowing I am there.

Throw in Shapechange instead of the Invisibility and now your fancy ultrasound thinks I am a pigeon hanging out with my pigeon buddies. Not as cool because I have to peck at seeds instead of sipping my coffee but technically even more difficult to spot.

If the street sammie is completely unaware of your presence, how can he have hostile intentions towards you? I don't think it is enough for the sammie to have an interest in the mages death or even for the mage to be the specific target of a contract. Rather, he has to be in the act of planning or executing a hostile action, which requires at least a general awareness of the mages presence. I think it is important to maintain fairly narrow definitions for all of the detection spells lest they become overpowered and overly generalized in effect. Moreover, I'm of the opinion that magical senses should have all of the same confounding factors (noise/signal ratio, modality not optimized for every situation, lack of discernable specificity, etc.) that real senses have. You're still using your meat brain to process the information even if magic is providing you with extra sensory abilities.

[Mäx]

What book is this from?

Attitude.

[Bushw4cker]

Only if the GM fails to take into account factors that mitigate the power of Awakened characters.

Every facility needs three dimensions of security: physical, matrix, and astral. If you build your facilities without (or with minimal) matrix security, you should not be surprised when the Hacker (or Technomancer) negates the need for the party to even bother going inside. In the same way, if you don't bother to put up astral security (or only put up a token ward or two), a Mage is going to have a field day.

If you really want to, you can negate the need for Matrix security by going ultra low-tech. Computer networks? What are those? Can you eat them? In the same way, you can negate the need for Astral security by building your base in a mana ebb (or mana void). Remember - ain't no metamagic that helps against a negative background count. Both of these are great big 'screw you!'s to any Wired or Awakened characters, but it can be done.

As far as options that are available without having access to magic yourself, here's what I've got off the top of my head:

FEYWARE
Get it aspected to the Magic Resistance quality at max level, 200,000 nuyen and 40 karma gets you +4 dice on all magic resistance tests. This is, of course, a terrible solution that probably costs more than it's worth, but it does exist. There's also the Magic Resistance quality (available for 5 BP per +1 to your resistance checks).

HAVEN LILIES
You can go for Haven Lilies early on against Magicians (requires two initiation grades to be able to negate a positive background count), and you can ALWAYS use Haven Lilies against Adepts. "Hey Adepts, you know those power points that fuel your powers? Lose three of them. I choose which."

FAB III
Bad solution to magical problems is bad. And not nearly as effective as people think. It exists, though.

TUNGSTEN BULLETS
As it turns out, Tungsten bullets will chew through a materialized spirit's Hardened Armor right quick.

ASTRAL DANGERS
Deliberately build your base in an area which corresponds to an absolutely TERRIFYING region of astral space. Alternately, go for a mana ebb or a mana void. For extra lulz? The target of the run is a nuclear power plant. Watch the mage cry the first time he tries to approach the area for astral scouting. Problem, nuclear spirits?

Haven Lilies and Tungsten Bullets, where did you find those?

[Bushw4cker]

What book is this from?


Are these similar to the astrally active ivy from RC?

and TUNGSTEN BULLETS.
aren't these AP bullets?

Feywear is from Attitude

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think these special cases really detract from the overall picture, though. The vast majority of runs are not nuclear power plants. The vast majority of people (even of shadowrunners, gangers, and corpsec) do not have Astral Hazing, or even Magic Resistance, or high Willpower/Edge. It's the same as saying you can control the super-hacker by making all the nodes in the game unrealistically tough, or you can control Binky by giving everyone Thunderstrucks.

The difference is that awakened characters tend to require a lot less optimization, I think. At the 'a few hundred karma' range, any early weaknesses have been smoothed out, the few missing spells have been learned, etc. This includes whatever version of invisibility you need (that horrible-yet-legal 'Fade' idea), attack spells for people and objects, anything you want.

The mundanes can only spend their karma on Attribs (hard maximum there), or skills (hard maximum there too). Tymeaus pointed out that they can diversify, which is true, but that's not getting stronger in the original areas, and spells/spirits/powers let the awakened be incredibly flexible already.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Feywear is from Attitude

Apparently, I really need to pick up "Attitude" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[James McMurray]

The mundanes can only spend their karma on Attribs (hard maximum there), or skills (hard maximum there too). Tymeaus pointed out that they can diversify, which is true, but that's not getting stronger in the original areas, and spells/spirits/powers let the awakened be incredibly flexible already.

The topic said nothing about specialization, just "outshining." If you're saying that the only way to shine is to get the most dice then yeah, mages are eventually going to outstrip the competition because they have no Magic cap. But that seems like a myopic and boring view of the game to me.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, your face is a myopic and boring view! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Seriously though, my point is just that the mage (who is already flexible and getting more so), is *also* improving; the mundane is only broadening, because they have hard caps. I don't think this is a controversial point, and I specifically did *not* say 'mages specialize, mundanes generalize'.

[Scyldemort]

Haven Lilies and Tungsten Bullets, where did you find those?

Haven Lilies are in Street Magic (I think they're referenced in Arsenal as well). They're awakened flowers. If you have enough of them at a location, they increase the background count. Max increase is +3.

Tungsten rounds I believe are from War!
Checking...

OK, my mistake. Meant to say Anti-Tank Rounds. Only usable in large-bore weapons (sniper-rifles, assault cannons, HMGs). AP-6.

Alternately, you could bring out the AT rockets (22P, AP-10 on direct hit, no AP otherwise). And if the magician is going for spirits with a force above, say, seven on a regular basis, it IS time to respond exactly as if he were sending out hordes of armored vehicles.

[longbowrocks]

I guess I should say that there is kind of a limit to this improving. Once you can buy an Aesir satellite, there's no longer any point to becoming stronger. RAW is: freya or thor kills on hit. Period. Thus we could say that is that hard cap on character improvement.
As for PoliteMan's suggestion: cheater! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
#1 First one to conquer the world -> face
#2 First one to destroy the world -> face
#9 A game of chess -> Deep Blue
Once you get beyond the scope of what a single player can do (large scale plans like taking over the world), charisma becomes the ultimate weapon.

[longbowrocks]

I need a break, so just a moment of non-seriousness:

Mana voids/ebbs cannot be negated by any magical ability, so the proper technique to defeat a mage would be to acquire two unbelievably rambunctious characters with a great deal of aura/essence (such as Pinky Pie from MLP). You then bring these characters near each other. The incredible mana flows generated will rebound and create a mana void between them. You can also funnel the auras of these characters through slits to generate targeted wave interference. The only question is whether mana flows as a particle or a wave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Also, I didn't get to ask this earlier, but what is FAB? Full auto burst?

[longbowrocks]

that's a rule for cyborgs, not cyberzombies.

More importantly, the reason a mage cannot target a cyborg in a drone body is because they have like .01 essence, there's almost nothing left of their soul. So, there's not enough left to "shine" through their drone body. Also a cyborg in a drone body is indistinguishable from a regular drone, which cannot be targeted by mana spells. However, a human in body armor is clearly a human in body armor and nearly all humans will have way more than .01 essence. I suppose stunbolt would be a lot less useful if you could just cover up your whole body to counter indirect spells, but I don't think that's what they were intending. You can't apply rules made for one special/extreme case (cyborgs) to everyone with FBA

This is an awesome idea. At creation, cyber yourself to kingdom come, leaving negligible essence. I don't really like cybering, but with that, you should be undetectable by assensing. Additionally, Shadowrun assumes the existence of the soul, so you could keep your heart instead of your brain (keep a logic processor or something instead) and be immune to mind control.