Naturally Wired, +1 IP Quality (Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions) Options

[Bushw4cker]

Thoughts Comments or Suggestions...
Thanks )


Naturally Wired
Cost: 20BP

The Naturally Wired quality allows an unaugmented
character to react with astonishing speed. This quality granting
her a +1 Initiative Pass, which is not cumulative
with any other Reaction or Initiative enhancement, be it technological
or magical.

[streetangelj]

What about Lightning Reflexes (15 BP; RC98)? I think it's reasonable to combine edges; and was thining of suggesting increaing cost, but then that would be normally impossible; plus its probably still cheaper to use magic/tech instead.

[fazzamar]

I like it. I would probably allow it in my game.

[Xahn Borealis]

I can't see it. Remember you can always spend Edge for an extra IP. I don't see how that sort of speed would be sustainable or consistent. It makes sense that sometimes you're just 'on the ball' and happen to move quick but no one is always like that. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge make sense but any other natural initiative enhancement makes sense to me.

Unless it was SURGE. That would work, definitely, several critters automatically get extra IPs, so the whole 'manimal' cross-breed thing would work.

As always, your vehicle may traverse a different distance.

[Bushw4cker]

I think if this Quality was in a SR4 book no one would even think twice about it.

[Yerameyahu]

As in, they'd never waste 20 BP getting it, when they could just get +2 Edge instead?

[Epicedion]

Yeah, I can't imagine anyone spending that many BP on it. Equivalent (actually superior) Wired Reflexes costs 2.2 BP, and magicians/adepts have better options.

I think a Technomancer would probably be the only character type to benefit from it, since they don't have very good options for bonus IPs, otherwise.

[James McMurray]

I like it, but for 20BP I think it should stack with everything. It's a hefty chunk of your starting BP, can't be bought later without GM approval, and counts against any other positive qualities you'd have wanted to buy. There's already a max of 4 IPs for most situations, so there's less risk of it being abused.

Then again, I'd want to see what kind of crazy crap could be done with it before passing final judgment. But our current group has a 4 pass jaguar shifter, a 3 pass ork with 22 shooting dice, and had a trolldrake possession mage with crazy melee skills so I don't know what would make me say "no way." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If it stacks, it might actually be way too *good* for 20BP. Tricky.

In general, the nonstacking qualities are worthless (cat's eyes, hawkeye, etc.), because gear is such a big deal. But *stacking* qualities… people line up to get Metagenic Improvement and the like.

An IP is worth a lot, after all. For Magic/Resonance, users, part of that 20BP is saved by not having to compensate (at least 10BP). For others, the difference between Wires 2 and 3 is 2 Essence and 68k¥ (worse with higher grades); Synaptic Booster is 80k¥ per level.

[Epicedion]

Well, 20 BP is worth 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so I don't see it being abused too much there. For the same price you could get Wired Reflexes 3, and have your 4 IPs already (well, in character generation you'd have to also take Restricted Gear, but +3 Reaction/+3 IPs is slightly better than +1 IP). Even Synaptic Booster 1 is cheaper and better (since the Quality version doesn't give +1 Reaction).

Letting it stack with magic improvement could be tricky, since magic can be cheap, but it is a lot of BP.

This is not quite the same as Lightning Reflexes, since that comes out cheaper than just purchasing 2 points of Reaction, and seems to allow you to bypass the natural maximum, so those 15 BP are just full of bonuses.

[Yerameyahu]

You have to include the significant value of Essence, though. I agree that 20BP is a lot, of course. But maybe not too much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd *much* rather not take Restricted Gear + Wires 3, for example, just compared to this Quality + Wires 2. If 4 IPs is even the goal, where 3 tends to be plenty.

Look at it this way: would someone willingly take a Human+ race that cost 20? Depends on the character. If it's someone who needs to save 2 whole Essence, or who'd have to buy up their Magic/Resonance to compensate… (10-20BP right there).

[Epicedion]

You have to include the significant value of Essence, though. I agree that 20BP is a lot, of course. But maybe not too much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd *much* rather not take Restricted Gear + Wires 3, for example, just compared to this Quality + Wires 2. If 4 IPs is even the goal, where 3 tends to be plenty.

Look at it this way: would someone willingly take a Human+ race that cost 20? Depends on the character. If it's someone who needs to save 2 whole Essence, or who'd have to buy up their Magic/Resonance to compensate… (10-20BP right there).

You could throw in a rule that says it's not compatible with Reaction Enhancers or Wired Reflexes, but would work with the more expensive Synaptic Booster. That would be a fair restriction, and serve to give it some flavor.

That would make it (equivalent) 260,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to hit your 4 IPs, with 1 less Reaction than if you spent 240,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on Synaptic Booster 3, at a saving of 0.5 Essence.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As in, they'd never waste 20 BP getting it, when they could just get +2 Edge instead?

I have character concepts that would benefit from it.

[Yerameyahu]

Epicedion, *partial* stacking… good idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your concepts are crazy, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I'm not prepared to claim that no one would ever want it, but I'll own up to a 95% rate.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Epicedion, *partial* stacking… good idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your concepts are crazy, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I'm not prepared to claim that no one would ever want it, but I'll own up to a 95% rate.

Heh... Okay, good enough then... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

I can't see it. Remember you can always spend Edge for an extra IP. I don't see how that sort of speed would be sustainable or consistent. It makes sense that sometimes you're just 'on the ball' and happen to move quick but no one is always like that. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge make sense but any other natural initiative enhancement makes sense to me.

A quality I'd actually like to see is one that removes the once a turn limit from the 'edge for ip' rule. It would make the unaugmented edgebunny a little bit more viable when the bullets start flying.

Possibly as an addon/shoehorn to adrenaline surge's rules.

[TheOOB]

I don't like it in any version. I believe one of the hallmarks of the Shadowrun world is how unfair it is. You have a small percentage of the population born with supernatural abilities that mundanes can never hope to emulate, people who pay huge sums of cash for the ability to to augment their body for every physical advantage, and people who are willing to use dangerous and experiment drugs for a minor temporary boost.

That fact that in order to be an strong combatant you need magic, augmentation, or at least drugs I think is a strong point of the system, and any way of circumventing this really misses the point IMO. In short, every cheats in Shadowrun, and the fair players are dead. Whats the point of a dystopia if by being good enough and trying hard enough you can overcome the cheaters? That kind of stuff is for high fantasy.

/rant

[Udoshi]

/rant

While I can agree with this on one level, as far as I've heard argued here and there - there used to be something similar in 3rd edition. In that, with the unpredictability and fickleness of initiative dice, and qualities/edges that let unaugmented people use edge for initiative, even a normal person could occasionally act two or three times.

Then along comes fourth, and makes it so you HAVE to be special(adept, magician, infected, a shitton of edge so you have enough to spend EVERY time bullets fly, etc) to get another pass.

Its kind of a disconnect, from one edition to another. I think a quality like this could do wonders to even up the danger level, because, well, whats good for the goose is good for the gander - you just NEVER KNOW if some badass wannabe ganger you're picking a fight with just happens to have an extra pass in his pocket.
And I kind of miss the Unaugmented PI archetype.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd rather just switch back to the variable IP system, but sure. I don't object to 'naturally wired' on thematic grounds, just on crunch/abuse potential (of a stacking version). The unstacking version, which I still say would be overpriced as a blessing and halfway to a curse (stuck at 2 IP forever, unless you rule that it can be 'overwritten' by better stuff), isn't objectionable for being *over*powered.

I don't think there's a 'right' answer. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge were mentioned; they're both 15 BP, and pretty restrictive. I'd call them overpriced, though the Surge is pretty nifty (more so for slower people, inconveniently). This quality would *have* to be more expensive than both (20 BP, as the OP said), to be fair, but also nonstacking (to fit their precedent). The stacking version… the biggest problem is still awakened, I think. If it were 30 BP, that'd preclude all but plain adepts? *shrug* If it were 20 BP (30 BP for Awakened), that might fit, but it seems inelegant.

[Udoshi]

At least in my printing of the RC, the master table at the back lists Adrenaline Surge as a -five- bp quality.

I think someone accidentally put a 1 in front of it for the printing, because it really IS overpriced.

As for the non-stacking version, thats exactly how the Vampire(all the race-specific vampire variants have it, but not ghouls) extra passes work. Just, you know, a bit more available to the average joe.

[Yerameyahu]

I also liked the idea of making it a SURGE quality, Cheetah Reflexes or whatever. Thematically, I mean; crunch-wise, it's worse for a *stacking* version, because it makes easy for Awakened to get it.

Can't imagine it being 5, Udoshi. Lightning Reflexes (15 BP) gives a measly +2 Reaction, incompatible with anything. (Sure, it's cheaper than 2 Reaction, but you spent all your Quality BP and can't combo it with anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ) Of course, a lot of the qualities are overpriced crap. For 5 BP, first in every combat sounds pretty solid.

[Udoshi]

I've considered adrenaline surge on a hacker, actaully. When you trigger an alert, being able to -always- get the first shot in is a wonderful boon. Or, you know, log out.

Lightning reflexes is pretty bad, but it does have its uses - mostly on free spirits. It also shines a bit more in German Karmagen, where its a flat 30 karma for 2 reaction. If you're getting a reaction of 5-6, and don't have any better qualities, might as well get another point for the same price, right? Ditto for Hardcapping reaction in BP gen.

[Udoshi]

augh doublepost.

[Epicedion]

I'd rather just switch back to the variable IP system, but sure. I don't object to 'naturally wired' on thematic grounds, just on crunch/abuse potential (of a stacking version). The unstacking version, which I still say would be overpriced as a blessing and halfway to a curse (stuck at 2 IP forever, unless you rule that it can be 'overwritten' by better stuff), isn't objectionable for being *over*powered.

I don't think there's a 'right' answer. Lightning Reflexes and Adrenaline Surge were mentioned; they're both 15 BP, and pretty restrictive. I'd call them overpriced, though the Surge is pretty nifty (more so for slower people, inconveniently). This quality would *have* to be more expensive than both (20 BP, as the OP said), to be fair, but also nonstacking (to fit their precedent). The stacking version… the biggest problem is still awakened, I think. If it were 30 BP, that'd preclude all but plain adepts? *shrug* If it were 20 BP (30 BP for Awakened), that might fit, but it seems inelegant.

Two things, one for each paragraph:

1) I'm testing out my critical success rule for Initiative (4+ successes, +1 to the threshold for each extra IP you have from magic/augmentation -- beating this threshold on the Initiative test grants +1 IP for the turn). One of my players was in Europe for 3 weeks, so I haven't gotten to see it in action yet, but we should get a look this coming week. I'm considering taking away spending Edge for extra IPs and replacing it with just rolling Edge / Rule of Six on Initiative.

2) Lightning Reflexes is a pretty good deal for Magicians, who don't see Reaction bonuses very easily.

[Yerameyahu]

Magicians need that 15 BP of qualities for other things, and they can always use spells for that… which aren't compatible with the quality they wasted 15 BP on.