Building a mage. Suggestions on how?, pixie, drake or something else? Options

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is 12 minus Magic hours.
So if you cast a Force 3 Ritual, with magic 6 it takes 6 hours.
But yes, that is the main drawback.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It is 12 minus Magic hours.
So if you cast a Force 3 Ritual, with magic 6 it takes 6 hours.
But yes, that is the main drawback.

Who said the character has a Magic of 6? He has a Magic of 3. Looking to raise it, eventually, to a Magic of 5, but that is in the future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Irion]

Sorry, just read force 3 and thought you might be calculating based on force since you gave no other numbers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry, just read force 3 and thought you might be calculating based on force since you gave no other numbers.

Hey, no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Actually, no it is not. It is quite useful, if yuou are willing to take the effort.
You can use a Spirit as a Spotter.
You can use Real Links (Hair, Blood, Skin, bdoily fluids, etc) to cast without a Spotter, and WITHOUT the Symbolic Linking Metamagic, so no Initiation is actually required.

The character I have currently has 3 Levels of Ritual Spellcasting. He is Quite useful when he wants to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, I know; I know that when it was posted a page back, possibly by me even!

That is what the Preserve Spell is for. Learn it, Use it. It is The Ritualists greatest Spell Asset.



Skill 3 (Professional), Adequate Lodge, Ritual Materials (relatively cheap for the return), a handful of spells, and No Magical Group Required. My Ritualist makes the world go round. Detection and Manipulation magic makes it even better. Why do keep insisting that the ability requires insane amounts of resources, when it obviously does not? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

1: I already commented on the preserve spell. Please read the comments before posting.

2: There is a button called Multiquote. It allows you to easily quote a lot of responses in a single post. Note how I'm using it? Please try and stop cluttering up the thread with random short posts.

By the same token, you should not dismiss the experience that others have with the game, which you often do (in this very thread even). Dumpshcok is home to a lot of veteran players and GM's. I am sure that between all of us, we have played or GM'd just about anything you can get your hands on. Lets not hose down the decks with testosterone here, it is not a contest of how big a phallus we have.

Just Sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That's why I come to Dumpshock as a whole for advice on what I cannot do, but not individual posters necessarily. I respect individual posters, who's experience might not be the same, but whose cunning and skill outstrips me. Similarly, I dismiss anyone whose tone I find offensive, condescending, and rude; or who dismisses my experience without knowing or asking what I've done with the game, and why.

The character with Ritual Spellcasting... It does not take much to be good.
It is extremely useful when you can target something with absolutely NO range limits. You do not have to see them (with a material link handy), and you can use any spell you have access to in the Ritual. Some spells will be better than others, of course.
<snip>
I'm actually a bit confused. What additional (excessive) costs are there to have Ritual Spellcasting abilities? If you bought the Sorcery group at Rank 4 (Rather than just Spellcasting and Counterspelling at 4), you spent a whopping additional 8 BP to have access to this ability. Not seeing a huge cost to utilize Ritual Castin here.

1: The great strength of ritual sorcery is a group. Without access to a steady pool of NPC's to participate, your ritual sorcery pools will be weak.
2: IIRC, ritual materials are still required. AFB at the moment, but don't you still need them?
3: You still need summoning and binding materials, plus good skills in those areas. True, you'd need that anyway, but you're wasting a service (and thus, ritual materials) when using a spirit as a spotter.
4: Opportunity cost of time. While you're sitting for 9 hours chanting and sweating, the face or sam could be sweating down people in the street, the decker could be using Data Search-- all for zero expenditure of resources, zero risk of drain, and so on and so forth. Also, it's less spotlight-hogging.

[longbowrocks]

Yeah, doesn't anyone play normal races any more? If I see another SURGEd Infected metavariant-*variant*, I dunno what I'll do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That said, if you're actually *playing* a pornomancer, it's obvious that it's a 'freaks campaign' and anything goes. Try the Pixie.

What about a Nosferatu Centaur Cyberzombie? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[longbowrocks]

it is not a contest of how big a phallus we have.

Speak for yourself, I apply my critical strike bonus to my implant at every opportunity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Don't be ridiculous. Nosferatu, Centaur, and cyberzombie are all mutually incompatible, plus CZ is non-chargen/non-player. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[TygerTyger]

Yeah, doesn't anyone play normal races any more? If I see another SURGEd Infected metavariant-*variant*, I dunno what I'll do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That said, if you're actually *playing* a pornomancer, it's obvious that it's a 'freaks campaign' and anything goes. Try the Pixie.

I don' t know if I'd go so far as to say he's playing a pornomancer (his error, not yours)... he's a social adept Dryad with tailored pheromones. Not a lot else really going there. And no, the rest of the campaign isn't a "freaks campaign" either, the other players have barely scratched the surface of optimization - hell the shapeshifter actually uses a harpoon gun. The sniper is scary, but they, aren't they always?

Not trying to target your comments specifically, but hoping to get this discussion back on topic... we'd love to see some more advice on building a magician.

Though I do agree fully with your "doesn't anyone play normal races any more?" comment. I warn everyone that if you make a character that stands out, and metavariants do, other races moreso, you will pay the consequences. When you are trying to hide, being unique or damned close, is a capital B bad idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Actually, no it is not. It is quite useful, if yuou are willing to take the effort.
You can use a Spirit as a Spotter.
You can use Real Links (Hair, Blood, Skin, bdoily fluids, etc) to cast without a Spotter, and WITHOUT the Symbolic Linking Metamagic, so no Initiation is actually required.

The character I have currently has 3 Levels of Ritual Spellcasting. He is Quite useful when he wants to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree. I hate ritual spellcasting because you can just create a symbolic link and go to town. If I understand it right, some no name mage can spend all day taking potshots at Llofwyr until there's a new head of Saeder Krupp.

[Fortinbras]

I don't pretend to be the absolute truth on the game. However, Fortinbras directly challenged my experience with the game.

I wasn't questioning your experience, simply your method. I'm sorry for offending you, but I was commenting on the notion that you seem to be emphasizing the idea that because Ritual Sorcery isn't as good as Spellcasting, it has no worth. This is usually the purview of pink mohawk, and can be regardless of experience level. No one is doubting your history with the game. If you've been playing since before the Berlin Wall was down, I believe you, but you can't post ideas about what you like in Shadowrun and not expect people to have an idea of what your Shadowrun games are like.
Again, sorry if I offended you.

That does not work. If you cast Clairvoyance on a hair sample, the guy whos hair it is gets the benefits of the spell. You can't spy on him.

I see. I'll revise that in the future. One of the players in a game long ago convinced me that the ritual extended the sense range to the point of ritual sorcery and I was in the middle of GMing so took his word for it. I'll know to ammend that in the future. Thanks.

… With no group, who's doing the Ritual? It must not be a very good one all alone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, to repeat: it's clear you think it's useful in some situations, but it also seems like it's much *less* useful than the other options, unless you're focusing on it.

Most of the rituals I do, I do alone.(no comments from the peanut gallery) It's just like a regular spell, but you can use a spirits to spot or use a material link. The extra time it takes seems worth it to surpass LOS.
I'm not saying it's better than spellcasting, but ignoring it for cheap at character gen and calling it worthless simply because Spellcasting is used more often doesn't seem to be optimizing for play, but rather optimizing for crunch.
It's like calling Pistols worthless because Automatics have better stats.

[Yerameyahu]

Pistols are worthless, because Automatics have better stats. Or, as I said many posts ago, 'vastly less useful than spending it on other things'.

[longbowrocks]

How about holdouts?

[Fortinbras]

Pistols are worthless, because Automatics have better stats. Or, as I said many posts ago, 'vastly less useful than spending it on other things'.

Really? When you make a street samurai you don't buy Pistols?

[longbowrocks]

Why would he?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1: The great strength of ritual sorcery is a group. Without access to a steady pool of NPC's to participate, your ritual sorcery pools will be weak.
2: IIRC, ritual materials are still required. AFB at the moment, but don't you still need them?
3: You still need summoning and binding materials, plus good skills in those areas. True, you'd need that anyway, but you're wasting a service (and thus, ritual materials) when using a spirit as a spotter.
4: Opportunity cost of time. While you're sitting for 9 hours chanting and sweating, the face or sam could be sweating down people in the street, the decker could be using Data Search-- all for zero expenditure of resources, zero risk of drain, and so on and so forth. Also, it's less spotlight-hogging.

1. But it is not a requirement, and It does not need Massive dice pools to be useful.
2. Nope, not required. Looked in the Book.
3. Summoning requires no Materials. Bound spirits are not necessary.
4. Which is why you take multiple avenues. No amount of "sweating people" will help you identify a DNA sample.

No Spotlight Time required. I do my ritual, roll my dice... GM (or designate) rolls his dice, move along. Easy Peasy. Not sure why you think it is such a monumental waste of time. Still no expenditure of resources is involved, Drain is minimal to none, and so on and so forth.

Anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rasumichin]

I agree. I hate ritual spellcasting because you can just create a symbolic link and go to town. If I understand it right, some no name mage can spend all day taking potshots at Llofwyr until there's a new head of Saeder Krupp.

Except it won't work this way. The target may notice how the spell builds up (and Lofwyr will notice), can trace back the spotter and then you're in deep trouble.
That's hypothetical anyway though, as Lofwyr will most likely be inside a warded area all the time so the spell won't reach him in the first place.

While the capability of astral retaliation is pretty rare among people in general, it's much higher among those actually worth a magical assassination atempt. Wards are even more common, upper-class security level is enough for that.

[Whipstitch]

Pistols are extra crappy on a magician given that they have a few extra tricks for sneaking bigger guns through and can potentially just zap people if they really have to. So short of being stuck in a high background count they don't necessarily need to keep a hold-out or light pistol discreetly hidden away lest they be defenseless. Meanwhile, a mage who spent the points on automatics, longarms or heavy weapons can can easily have the punch needed to wreck combat drones, which is nice given that drones have high OR and immunity to stun damage and mental or organic target manipulations. I mean, honestly, even a cheapo Defiance T-250 or AK-97 with normal ammo has a good shot at putting a decent hole in a Steel Lynx, and if you've got APDS you can be reasonably certain of hurting even light security vehicles like a Patrol-1 or a Yellowjacket.

As far as samurai are concerned, I don't really see much mechanical justification for taking the pistols skill given that a pretty standard chargen samurai with muscle toners can reasonably expect to default to 7 to 9 dice with a stick 'n' shock loaded hold out pistol as long as they've got a smartlink or laser sight. As a last, last resort I would be pretty comfortable with that in the BP system given that you could always just take 1 rank of skill and hold-out specialization for 6 karma instead of 6 bp at some later date if you're really -that- worried about getting caught with your pants down sometime during your career. And that's assuming that the guy can't hurt people with his hands or with cyber spurs. I mean, hey, I'm not a huge fan of melee in SR, but as long as we're talking about unpalatable offensive options, I thought I'd mention it given that Unarmed, Blades or Clubs can at least add to defense pools as well.

[longbowrocks]

Except it won't work this way. The target may notice how the spell builds up (and Lofwyr will notice), can trace back the spotter and then you're in deep trouble.
That's hypothetical anyway though, as Lofwyr will most likely be inside a warded area all the time so the spell won't reach him in the first place.

While the capability of astral retaliation is pretty rare among people in general, it's much higher among those actually worth a magical assassination atempt. Wards are even more common, upper-class security level is enough for that.

I may have read something about noticing ritual spell power buildup, but I don't remember where.

Still, it sucks that I can't think of any way for a mundane to defend himself (aside from getting erased so his likeness never shows up in the first place).

[Rasumichin]

I may have read something about noticing ritual spell power buildup, but I don't remember where.

Still, it sucks that I can't think of any way for a mundane to defend himself (aside from getting erased so his likeness never shows up in the first place).

Sitting behind a ward would be sufficient. Having a warded room in your home is pretty much standard issue when your lifestyle includes a good security contract. Paying a mage (or anybody who can astrally perceive) to set up a ward costs a couple hundred (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Not too much for being safe from ritual spellcasting and astral spies.

[longbowrocks]

Sitting behind a ward would be sufficient. Having a warded room in your home is pretty much standard issue when your lifestyle includes a good security contract. Paying a mage (or anybody who can astrally perceive) to set up a ward costs a couple hundred (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Not too much for being safe from ritual spellcasting and astral spies.

Hm. Uses magic, but I guess I can't be choosy.

[Cain]

1. But it is not a requirement, and It does not need Massive dice pools to be useful.
2. Nope, not required. Looked in the Book.
3. Summoning requires no Materials. Bound spirits are not necessary.
4. Which is why you take multiple avenues. No amount of "sweating people" will help you identify a DNA sample.

No Spotlight Time required. I do my ritual, roll my dice... GM (or designate) rolls his dice, move along. Easy Peasy. Not sure why you think it is such a monumental waste of time. Still no expenditure of resources is involved, Drain is minimal to none, and so on and so forth.

Bound spirits are necessary if you're doing it alone, and most of the examples given have been solo. And binding spirits requires binding materials, and spotting requires a service. As far as sweating people goes, you can today get a DNA identification kit from Rite-Aid. It's called a paternity test. Given 2070 connectivity and technology, I can't see why one can't run a DNA sample through a DNA scanner and run a Data Search through the SIN/Criminal/Unidentified database. And you're wrong on the spotlight time, especially when you're trying to get the mage to roleplay a ritual, the same as you'd try tog et the face to roleplay a legwork session.

I wasn't questioning your experience, simply your method. I'm sorry for offending you, but I was commenting on the notion that you seem to be emphasizing the idea that because Ritual Sorcery isn't as good as Spellcasting, it has no worth. This is usually the purview of pink mohawk, and can be regardless of experience level. No one is doubting your history with the game. If you've been playing since before the Berlin Wall was down, I believe you, but you can't post ideas about what you like in Shadowrun and not expect people to have an idea of what your Shadowrun games are like.
Again, sorry if I offended you.

None taken, but to put it bluntly: you don't know my method. I've got lots of methods and styles I use, depending on the tastes of the gaming group and what I'm running at the time. Ritual Sorcery 1 is worthless, and while investing heavily in it can be useful, you can get similar utility by investing elsewhere.

In my experience, and mechanically speaking, ritual sorcery doesn't offer enough return for your investment at low levels, and requires too much investment for high levels. That's what I hoped to offer the OP: simple tricks to building his character so he gets the most bang for his buck. Ritual Sorcery also used to be decidedly advanced rules, so I try to avoid that for new players.

[bluedao]

Bound spirits are necessary if you're doing it alone, and most of the examples given have been solo. And binding spirits requires binding materials, and spotting requires a service.

It takes a high magic and/or some serous summoning skill to get a long enough service or short enough ritual but watchers solve this problem.

As far as sweating people goes, you can today get a DNA identification kit from Rite-Aid. It's called a paternity test. Given 2070 connectivity and technology, I can't see why one can't run a DNA sample through a DNA scanner and run a Data Search through the SIN/Criminal/Unidentified database.

Assuming all dna samples exist in a single database (which I disagree with) how are you getting access to it? What if their sinless? And do you have the time to wait for the results, which at least today, can take weeks if you don't know who the owner is. And then their are things besides just who it belongs to you can get from ritual sorcery using spells like mind probe etc.

And you're wrong on the spotlight time, especially when you're trying to get the mage to roleplay a ritual, the same as you'd try tog et the face to roleplay a legwork session.

Depends on the GM but if the mage gets some solo spotlight like the face, or hacker, or sam who have their own special kind of legwork then whats the problem?

None taken, but to put it bluntly: you don't know my method. I've got lots of methods and styles I use, depending on the tastes of the gaming group and what I'm running at the time. Ritual Sorcery 1 is worthless, and while investing heavily in it can be useful, you can get similar utility by investing elsewhere.

My only issue here is stating the last sentence as fact, the rest, yep your game, run it however you guys have fun. Personally I'm not a fan of it either for style reasons.

In my experience, and mechanically speaking, ritual sorcery doesn't offer enough return for your investment at low levels, and requires too much investment for high levels.

That's been my experience as well but I suspect more cloak and dagger type games might get some use, but now I'm just theorizing.

That's what I hoped to offer the OP: simple tricks to building his character so he gets the most bang for his buck. Ritual Sorcery also used to be decidedly advanced rules, so I try to avoid that for new players.

I agree.

[Cain]

Assuming all dna samples exist in a single database (which I disagree with) how are you getting access to it? What if their sinless? And do you have the time to wait for the results, which at least today, can take weeks if you don't know who the owner is. And then their are things besides just who it belongs to you can get from ritual sorcery using spells like mind probe etc.

Nowadays it takes weeks, but in 2070 it should only take seconds, if you have access to a police database. Which any decent decker can do. Run the guy down using conventional methods, and then use Mind Probe; it works just as well and involves all the players.

My only issue here is stating the last sentence as fact, the rest, yep your game, run it however you guys have fun. Personally I'm not a fan of it either for style reasons.

Ritual Sorcery of 1 is worthless. You can't participate in a group, and your dice pool is too small to be of any use. The biggest advantage of a high Ritual Sorcery skill is the larger number of people you can have in the group, and the larger dice pool it brings. Sure, you can do some cool things at that level, but you can do a lot of cool things by buying up other skills instead. That is a fact. I'm unsure what you're objecting to, I guess.

[Irion]

You do not need any spotter with street magic. Thats the shit about it. You can basicly get the coffee cup of your victim, drive home and nuke him.
If he does not know a better mage than you are, he is FUCKED.
Face can have a one night stand with the bodyguard and the next day this bodyguard shoots the target in the head.
And so on and so forth. If you are not bringing up some serious mojo (which smells in most instances like metagaming) the target has no fucking chance.


@longbowrocks

I hate ritual spellcasting because you can just create a symbolic link and go to town. If I understand it right, some no name mage can spend all day taking potshots at Llofwyr until there's a new head of Saeder Krupp.

Nope, because Lofywr has some major mojo. (Not that the normal mage would even get through his willpower.
So even if he does not notice it and is not behind a ward you do it one time and one time only. Then there is this greater Force 10 spirit kicking your ass an rosting you well done. (Because you know you can't trust the food these days)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Still no expenditure of resources is involved, Drain is minimal to none, and so on and so forth.

Which can easy be countered by getting a pill from the medkid.