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Dart Pistol/Rifle, How does armor effect them?

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Dashifen

Mar 24 2004, 03:41 PM

Post #1

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Here's two quotes I think are valid to the discussion:

QUOTE (MM p. 116)

"These pistols and rifles deliver chemical-coated darts, most commonly narcojet (p. 260, SR3). the darts can effectively pierce most armors.

Game Effects
For range purposes treat the dart pistol as a light pistol and the dart rifle as a shotgun. A character firing them would use the Pistol or Rifle Skill, respectively. The dart rounds below do not include the cost of the chemical"

QUOTE (MM p. 106)

"Impact armor worn by the target [of a weaponry delivered chemical attack] will reduce a drug's Power by half the armor rating, rounded down."

So, why do we reduce the power of the toxin if I have impact armor on? Is there something I'm missing? The dart guns don't have a power rating of their own, which I feel would represent the penetration power of the gun. However, if the needle penetrates the armor and delivers the toxin inside the body the fact that I have impact armor on shouldn't really matter to the power of the weapon.

Example: Jumpin' Jonny is wearing a secure long coat (4b/2i). He's shot by a narcojet round (6D stun). He doesn't dodge the shot so he is struck with the dart, but because he's wearing the secure long coat, the narcojet's power is reduced by 2 to 4D stun.

Solution: We give the dart pistol a damage rating of 6L or 9M (is it a light or heavy pistol?) which is reduced by impact armor. If the target of the shot (a) dodges or (b) soaks all of the "damage" by the pistol then the dart doesn't get through the armor and therefore doesn't deliver the toxin. If, on the other hand "damage" would have been incurred by the gun, we consider the dart to have penetrated the armor and the toxin is delivered at it's normal strength. A similar process could be applied to the dart rifle, giving it a damage code of 7S (average of the three sport rifles (7S + 7S + 9S) / 3 round down = 7S) and working with the above solution.

Example (using 6L for the pistol): Jumpin' Jonny is still wearing his secure long coat. He's shot by a narcojet round. The shooter generates 4 successess. Jonny rolls his dodge and generates 3 successes, leaving 1 net successes on the ranged combat roll. Then he rolls his body like a normal damage resistance test against a target number of 6 - impact armor = 4 and gets 3 successes, enough to soak the damage. Therefore, his impact armor stopped the dart and he's not harmed.

Example (still using 6L for the pistol): Same scenario but Jonny only rolls one success on his body roll. Therefore, there would still suffer a 6L wound. However, because this is a dart pistol, that result is actually the deliver of the toxin, in this case Narcojet, and therefore, he makes another body roll against the 6D stun damage from the toxin.

Questions:

Do you like the solution?
Is there something in canon that makes my solution unnecessary?
Which damage code should the dart pistol have?

To answer my own question, I think the pistol should have a code of 6M. That's the power rating of the light pistol with a damage rating of a heavy. This is so that impact armor (often less than ballistic) can pull that 6 down to a relatively easy number to hit (probably 3 or 4) but you still need 4 successes to have the dart fail to penetrate. This seems to reflect, to me, the idea that the "darts can effectively pierce most armors."

Dashifen View Member Profile	Mar 24 2004, 03:43 PM Post #2
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	Oh -- I would also figure that impact armor benefits from bone lacing does not factor into this concept but skin augmentations (derma plating, sheathing, orthoskin) definately would.

phelious fogg View Member Profile	Mar 24 2004, 03:45 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408	The idea is the dart gets somewhat caught in the folds of impact armor, therfor loosing some of the dose before it hits the target. So the target only suffers from a portion of the dose.

Dashifen View Member Profile	Mar 24 2004, 03:49 PM Post #4
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	Are the darts coated with the toxin? I always concidered them more like syringes which penetrate the skin and the inertia of the dart depresses an internal plunger injecting the toxin. Therefore, if you penetrate the armor then you get the full dose, but if the dart stops in the armor, then the armor is probably a little sticky right around the toxin, but if it doesn't have a contact vector then you're good to go. Time to go look for information on the darts .... Edit: Okay, I'm dumb -- the quotes at the top of the page include the phrase "chemical-coated" darts. With that in mind, I'll wander off and continue rambling to myself ..... Maybe someone with a Dart B/R skill ........... This post has been edited by Dashifen: Mar 24 2004, 03:52 PM

mcb View Member Profile	Mar 24 2004, 04:15 PM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083	The inertia of hitting the impact armor would cause a syringe dart to discharge some of its posion into the armor before it penetrated the skin. Remember the instant a dart touches the armor that dart is deceleration and this would trigger an inertial injection system. How much is wasted before it penetrates the armor is determined by how good the impact armor is.

Wireknight View Member Profile	Mar 24 2004, 05:52 PM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118	The problem with your system is that it makes it highly possible for a skilled marksman to "accidentally" kill someone with a knock-out dart. That's the mechanics reason I've found for darts not having a damage code of their own. I witnessed a GM declare dart weapon to deal 4L damage, then immediately reconsider this as the dart fired by a sniper from concealment(they got a decent amount of successes, called the shot, and surprised the target, denying both combat pool and armor), against one of the PCs, would have done Deadly physical damage before the narcoject toxin effects were even considered.

TheOneRonin

Mar 24 2004, 06:07 PM

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QUOTE (mcb)

The inertia of hitting the impact armor would cause a syringe dart to discharge some of its posion into the armor before it penetrated the skin. Remember the instant a dart touches the armor that dart is deceleration and this would trigger an inertial injection system. How much is wasted before it penetrates the armor is determined by how good the impact armor is.

The only problem with this line of thought is that doubling the dose of the chemical in question would more than make up for what little is lost penetrating the armor. In my games, narcoject darts pretty much ignore soft armor, but have MUCH shorter effective range (5 Meters for Pistol, 10 for Rifle).

Whenever I feel that armor will play a factor, I simply use the armor's impact rating as the minimum number of successes required to penetrate. The attacker's successes are only reduced by the defender's dodge test. There is no body roll involved. So you shoot a narcoject dart at a guy with an armored jacket (5/3). You need three net successes, AFTER the defender has rolled his dodge test, to have the dart penetrate. 1 or 2 successes, no penetration. 3+ successes an the bad guy is resisting a 6D stun from the toxin.

Also, Security, Military, and hardened armor is not subject to penetration by dart guns.

Dashifen

Mar 24 2004, 06:14 PM

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QUOTE (Wireknight)

The problem with your system is that it makes it highly possible for a skilled marksman to "accidentally" kill someone with a knock-out dart. That's the mechanics reason I've found for darts not having a damage code of their own.

The dart is not actually doing any damage. The purpose of providing the damage codes to the dart guns was to determine if hte bullet makes it through the person's armor. It doesn't do any damage at all. I like the idea by TheOneRonin better though. It's more simple and invovles less rolling.

Still not sure if I like just reducing the power of the toxin, though. Much easier and canon, so I'll probably just suck it up and use those rules, but I think it's weird.

RedmondLarry View Member Profile	Mar 24 2004, 08:58 PM Post #9
Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442	I love the 3rd edition rules for darts. I find them to be SO much easier to use than dart rules in earlier editions because they more closely mimic standard combat. nit: It's 'narcoject', not 'narcojet'.

Dashifen

Mar 24 2004, 09:55 PM

Post #10

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QUOTE (OurTeam)

nit: It's 'narcoject' not 'narcojet'.

never noticed that ... thanks OurTeam :)

Slamm-O View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 02:17 AM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 4-May 03 Member No.: 4,535	along these lines, i cant seem to find a cost for a dose of narcoject, can someone give me a book and page please? i reacall it being in sr2 but havent been able to remember seeing it in any sr3 books. Also: are there rules concerning darts v. hardened armor, auto no go?

Smiley View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 02:19 AM Post #12
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	I believe if you look in Man and Machine, you can find a lot of this stuff. Also, and correct me i'f i'm mistook, i think narcoject is the equpiment you use and not an actual drug.

Jason Farlander View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 02:33 AM Post #13
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323	You are mistook. Check SR3 and the back of M&M for stats on the narcoject drug.

Smiley View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 02:42 AM Post #14
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	Fair enough.

Shockwave_IIc

Mar 25 2004, 02:51 AM

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QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Mar 24 2004, 06:07 PM)

Whenever I feel that armor will play a factor, I simply use the armor's impact rating as the minimum number of successes required to penetrate. The attacker's successes are only reduced by the defender's dodge test. There is no body roll involved. So you shoot a narcoject dart at a guy with an armored jacket (5/3). You need three net successes, AFTER the defender has rolled his dodge test, to have the dart penetrate. 1 or 2 successes, no penetration. 3+ successes an the bad guy is resisting a 6D stun from the toxin.

I like these, but i do think your beng a little hard, perhaps it should be impact halfed round up (for a change)? this is for someone who has had a pc around around with atropine darts.

QUOTE

Also, Security, Military, and hardened armor is not subject to penetration by dart guns.

Military i can see (being hardened) but why security?

Capt. Dave View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 02:53 AM Post #16
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183	I personally prefer Gamma-Scopalamine(sp?) to Narcoject. A tad more powerful, plus wonderful TN modifiers and Willpower losses to your target.

Smiley View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 02:54 AM Post #17
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	Just forget all the weaponry and fill up some DMSO water-balloons with your nasty chemical of choice. Or head down to Wal-Mart and invest in a super-soaker.

Shockwave_IIc View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 03:01 AM Post #18
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499	Atropine!! it's so much cheaper then Gamma-spellforshit!

Smiley

Mar 25 2004, 03:05 AM

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QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Mar 24 2004, 10:01 PM)

Atropine!! it's so much cheaper then Gamma-spellforshit!

That's a big nega-tory.
Gamma-Scopolamine (i looked up the spelling) costs half as much, does 10D (yeah, it's stun, but...) instead of 7D, AND has other TN modifyers.
p. 157-158 M&M

Shockwave_IIc View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 03:11 AM Post #20
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499	So does atropine. and are you figuring in SI? Gamma 300 :nuyen: x an SI of 3= 900 :nuyen: Atropine 600 :nuyen: SI of 1 so = 600 :nuyen: Damage 10 D stun vs 7D. plus 7D every 15 minutes plus atropine is easier to get hold of

Capt. Dave View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 03:19 AM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183	Yeah, I'll give you that, but GS has a greater TN modifier to add onto wound modifiers, plus the Willpower loss of 2 for an hour afterwards. It's a whole package of loverly fringe benefits. EDIT - Atropine would be a better choice to kill someone, but that's what the Franchi's for.

Shockwave_IIc

Mar 25 2004, 03:28 AM

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QUOTE (Capt. Dave)

Atropine would be a better choice to kill someone, but that's what the Franchi's for.

That point i'll concead (sp?)

If your intending to interograte someone then yes Gamma all the way, but low skill (ie liking only 1-2 success) then then dart guns and atropine.

Diesel View Member Profile	Mar 25 2004, 03:29 AM Post #23
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955	Either way, I see a gun being better.

Capt. Dave

Mar 25 2004, 03:55 AM

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QUOTE (Diesel)

If your intending to interograte someone then yes Gamma all the way, but low skill (ie liking only 1-2 success) then then dart guns and atropine.

Definately, as it's hard to kill with Gamma. I'm just saying I prefer it over Narcoject for Stun. For killin', atropine (or as Diesel said, a gun) is the way to go.

theartthief

Mar 25 2004, 05:25 AM

Post #25

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QUOTE (Smiley)

Or head down to Wal-Mart and invest in a super-soaker.

Got to get me some Super Soaker loving!!!! :D

- theartthief

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