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> Technomancers and Bio/Cyber
Falconer
post Apr 24 2011, 06:18 AM
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I'm debating giving a techno a spin for the first time. Either that or a hacking adept (possibly just as a latent quality if the GM feels the character could use a little extra oomph). While I'm pretty familiar w/ faces, street sams, magicians/adepts... hacking and the matrix is pretty much unfamiliar territory to me. (only recently have a GM who wants to have to deal with it and a matrix heavy group).

Initially your signal rating is pretty low... so it strikes me, you'll want a good commlink anyhow to act as a relay as well as divert attention.

Crashcart Autodoc drone also seems like a usefull investment... (starts w/ walker mode, valkyrie module... room for usefull upgrades like rigger coccon, armor 12, etc)

Biofilter rating... This doesn't appear to be limited by resonance as it's not a 'persona attribute' of the living persona. But an 'other rating'. So an elf w/ 7 Cha out the gates would have a lot of biofilter rating as well as an edge in registered sprites? Correct?
Dwarf is nice w/ the higher wil cap.. but again need some resonance increases and submersions to get the full benefit of it, the free bod/str points are nice though..

If going the rigger route.. how exactly does a machine sprite use autosofts? It takes the place of the pilot/OS of the drone since only pilot programs can use them?

Also, it strikes me that sprites are useful as helpers. But it really takes a tag-team of them for them to do well remotely.


But my question mostly resolves around the various bio/cyber options. Is it worthwhile for a techno to reduce his resonance at all out the gate for some cyber/bio. How much? Is it worth taking a 1 point or 2 point hit to essence?


Positive qualities:
Biocompatibility: Seems useful for slipping in that little bit of extra gear. 50% enhancement over alpha grade. Not sure if better use of positive qualities though.

BBB:
Bioware:
Cerebral Boosters:
Not sure if these are good or not. On one side, higher logic can possibly mean more CF's at chargen (though IIRC.. things like that are limited by normal logic, not the augmented logic score). Only thing I can think of is system rating x2 == subscriptions. Any tests I'm missing which use System rating?

Logic is a technomancers 'system' rating... but that is capped by resonance. (so much for effective program rating == system. since resonance x2 is max for threading boost). Am I missing anything here?

Pain Editor:
This seems like custom made... +1 willpower means +1firewall, again though capped by resonance. The ability to ignore stun damage opens up the doors a bit.

Damage Compensator:
Ignore damage penalties... nuff said... (though stacked w/ pain editor?... pain editor ignores stun track... does that mean the damage compensator can be used on physical track?)

Sleep Regulator:
Nuff said... especially if it's alpha grade and 'half essence' since cyber total is larger.

Platelet Factories:
Pretty good for TM's I'd think... since they're always in the hotseat and lack a matrix damage track. Always reduces one point of damage.

Cyberware:
Cyberlimb:
Capacity to add more cyber and sensors... implanted commlink, datajack, biomonitor, armor... (nanohive?) passable agility to use a pistol/SMG early on especially if you use a combat drug for an extra pass.

Rigger Module:
Self-explanatory for someone who actually likes to jump into drones... though unsure if this or 'command' method is better from the perspective of essence loss vs resonance loss.


Augmentation:
PuSHeD: +1 to all logic linked skills... that's pretty much all the hacker bits for .1 essence.

Adapsin: Doesn't seem that usefull if you're only getting a little bit of cyber/bio. Extra 10% essence off new cyber but at the cost of .2 bio (which most likely gets halved).

Various +1 natural attribute caps for 0.1 essence... nice, but still costly to buy that stat up to 6+ w/ karma. (seems better spending a lot of that karma on submersions and resonance).

Trauma Damper: Cumulative w/ platelets... strikes me as slightly inferior (downgrading 1 point of physical to stun... is inferior to canceling it IMO).

Nanites:
Not sure how many of these are usefull at all. +dice to logic skills is nice, but only out of combat/non-stressful. That caveat seems pretty big.
Rigger nanites seem ok w/ the rigger module if you're using submersions for extra passes rather than the simsense booster.

Skillwire Expert System:
Does this work with biowires? For .1 essence cyber might be worth considering if so.

Stirrup Interface:
Rig yourself, only option to non-TM's. Though TM's need a lot of submersions to get anything approaching this. Don't think it's worthwhile for TM's given the options.

Simsense Booster:
extra pass.. nuff said. Generally only seems usefull as an essence hole waiting for a later submersion to fill in with other cyber later. Incompatible with rigger nanites...

Math SPU:
Obvious benefits to encrypt/decrypt. Cheap in both essence and nuyen for cyber.

Encephalon:
Rating 1 is pretty costly in essence but helps all logic linked active skills, so it's slightly inferior to PUSHed. Can't argue with it too much though. Rating 2 only gives extra bonuses to cracking and electronics group skills for double the money/essence. Seemse usefull to deckers... not so much to riggers.


Have I missed any augmentations? Interested in others feedback. Thanks for the help
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Xahn Borealis
post Apr 24 2011, 10:00 AM
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Remember that any fraction of a point of Essence from 1.0 to 0.1 removes a whole point of Resonance so if you get one, you may as well use up the whole point, but be careful not to go over. For a technomancer, a datajack is a brilliant thing. Comes with all the headware memory you'll ever need and the jack itself will let you jack in in case of being jammed.

As for the skillwire expert system working with biowires, it's unclear, probably better the simply thread the DIMAP option for your skillsoft complex forms.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 24 2011, 12:52 PM
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Some of those you'll have to ask the GM if he'll allow (that is, work with your powers). Simsense Booster, Skillwire Expert, etc.
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Falconer
post Apr 24 2011, 03:17 PM
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I'm fully aware of essence and essence loss rules... up to and including tracking bio/cyber hole totals seperately and halving the lower value for your actual essence score. Up to and including the in for an ounce, in for a pound aspect of the final essence score.

The reason why fractions are important is because mixing cyber & bio lets you pack more stuff into a limited footprint... (1 point of essence allows for 2/3rd's point of cyber, and 2/3rd's point of bio... since 2/3 + (2/3)/2==1.


My biggest question though revolves around the cerebral boosters. They *seem* like something usefull. But when I start looking into the technomancer crunch which I'm unfamiliar with... and the matrix to a lesser degree. I just can't figure out what exactly a higher 'system' rating does for a TM. Also the times you're rolling Logic + skill seem pretty limited in comparison.


My second largest deals w/ machine sprites... They seem nice and cool... and that power of theirs seems to have a lot of uses. EG: could I stuff one in my ares predator and basically put the smartgun on steroids? If I'm reading diagnostics properly... 4 ranks in pistols means potentially +4 dice from diagnostics, or a similar bonus if you have them in the drone assisting you while you control it?
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Stahlseele
post Apr 24 2011, 03:25 PM
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Bio-Compatibility is nice, but Type-O System is better.
Every single piece of Bioware counts as Delta-Ware for the same monetary costs of Standard Grade.
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Falconer
post Apr 24 2011, 04:51 PM
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Stahl:
Read again.. 'off the rack BASIC bioware'. It's one of those ones which looks good until you actually learn how limited it's effects are. Standard grade cultured bioware gets no benefit.

It's also 30BP... which leaves no space for any other mods. All the cultured bioware doesn't qualify, making that one of the worst positive qualties in the game. (synaptic boosters, cerebral boosters, pain editor, sleep regulator, damage compensators,


A lot of the items on the basic bioware list are cheap and good picks for adepts/street sams. Also since most of them are Type-O and mass produced.. they're cheap enough that actually considering delta grade is an option as well. (at higher levels replacing your 8k/rank muscle toner w/ alpha/beta/or even delta at 80k/rank is a consideration to open up essence). Though I have a hard time seeing any except the super/super rich ever getting delta grade synaptic boosters... (2.4million...)
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Stahlseele
post Apr 24 2011, 04:53 PM
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Doesn't availability go up with the higher grades anymore?
Also, i don't think it's ever really been officially declared wether or not the type-o counts for basic bioware only . .
But yeah, i see your point.
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Udoshi
post Apr 24 2011, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 23 2011, 11:18 PM) *
Biofilter rating... This doesn't appear to be limited by resonance as it's not a 'persona attribute' of the living persona. But an 'other rating'. So an elf w/ 7 Cha out the gates would have a lot of biofilter rating as well as an edge in registered sprites? Correct?
Dwarf is nice w/ the higher wil cap.. but again need some resonance increases and submersions to get the full benefit of it, the free bod/str points are nice though..


Complex forms are ALSO limited by your resonance. So, sadly, no help there. Same ceiling.

However it enjoys other perks of being a complex form, like threading to increase the rating and sprite assist operation to do the same.
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Udoshi
post Apr 24 2011, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Apr 24 2011, 03:00 AM) *
Remember that any fraction of a point of Essence from 1.0 to 0.1 removes a whole point of Resonance so if you get one, you may as well use up the whole point, but be careful not to go over. For a technomancer, a datajack is a brilliant thing. Comes with all the headware memory you'll ever need and the jack itself will let you jack in in case of being jammed.

As for the skillwire expert system working with biowires, it's unclear, probably better the simply thread the DIMAP option for your skillsoft complex forms.


To the first point: A datajack is ok, but a fingernail data storage from arsenal(Spy tools) does it better, cheaper, and at no essence cost - if all you need is the storage.

As for the skillwire system: Yes, it would. Biowires act as a skillwire system with rating equal to, and expert systems enhance skillwire systems. Any fluffy/background incompatabilities between technomancers and cyberware is resolved by the FAQ: Technomancers also benefit fully from VR-initiative pass increasing cyberware, and other typical hacker-ware (the encephalon and simsense booster are specifically called out).

In the current game I'm in, I've asked my gm(and gotten permission/approval) to learn the Skillwire Expert System as an Unrated Complex Form like Simrig or Smartlink, who's cyberware equivalents are both in a similiar price/essence/effect range - so you might try doing the same.
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 25 2011, 06:27 AM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 24 2011, 12:51 PM) *
Stahl:
Read again.. 'off the rack BASIC bioware'. It's one of those ones which looks good until you actually learn how limited it's effects are. Standard grade cultured bioware gets no benefit.


Early printings of 4th Edition used to call "standard" bioware "basic". This was changed in SR4A, but the Type O quality was not errata'd to match.

The intent was "not Alpha, Beta or Delta".





-k
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 25 2011, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 24 2011, 05:53 PM) *
Doesn't availability go up with the higher grades anymore?
Also, i don't think it's ever really been officially declared wether or not the type-o counts for basic bioware only . .
But yeah, i see your point.



QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 25 2011, 07:27 AM) *
Early printings of 4th Edition used to call "standard" bioware "basic". This was changed in SR4A, but the Type O quality was not errata'd to match.

The intent was "not Alpha, Beta or Delta".


Actually, Type O only works on basic bioware, never on cultured. There was a thread where the Augmentation developers clarify this;
FrankTrollMan
FrankTrollMan
Synner, main developer for Augmentation
Aaron, generally line boss
FrankTrollMan again
Synner again

To quickly summarize:
"Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body"

Cultured bioware is always always always grown for the specific recipient and therefore never off-the-rack. Also, "Basic" is a game term describing the non-Cultured bioware (SR4A, p. 347 has separate Basic and Cultured bioware tables. So does Augmentation, p. 171-172)
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Stahlseele
post Apr 25 2011, 09:26 AM
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Do the SR4 Rules even still make the difference?
In SR3, It was either Basic or Cultured, where cultured Bio was the equivalent of Betaware for Bio and certain pieces had to be done in cultured. And in SR4, the cultured part seems to be only in the fluff, not in the crunch anymore. Seeing how Bio is now in grades of basic, alpha, beta and delta like cyber . .
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 25 2011, 10:26 AM
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Grades are actually Standard, Alpha, Beta, Delta.

Cultured and Basic are each others' opposite:
Basic is off-the-rack, Type O fits all.
Cultured must be specifically cultured for a recipient.

It's definitely crunch.
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Irion
post Apr 25 2011, 11:09 AM
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Type O is still a good quality for adepts or sams though. If you just take a look at the basic bioware in the core book:
Bone Density 20k * Raiting (up to 4).
Muscle Augmentation:7k * Raiting (4)
Muscle toner:8k * Raiting (4)
Orthoskin:30.000 * Raiting (3)
Platelet Factories: 25k
Suprathyroid Gland: 45k
So on this stuff alone you get a dicount (compared to delta) of 2700k. Meaning 2.7 Millions.
The essence cost for all of that would be: 2.225.
So yes for a Sam it would be more than a good investment. (30BP translate to about 150k. So it is a good deal)

(If it would count for cultured Bioware too, it would just be too good.
I mean with the Synaptic Booster alone you would save: 2.16 millions. (0.75 Essence)
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 25 2011, 11:13 AM
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Type O has its uses, although it's not good for everyone. I still have this idea lying around for a BioAdept with Type O and eventually Masking, to create a perfectly innocent-looking person chock-full of nearly undetectable delta-ish ware.
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Xahn Borealis
post Apr 25 2011, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 25 2011, 12:15 AM) *
In the current game I'm in, I've asked my gm(and gotten permission/approval) to learn the Skillwire Expert System as an Unrated Complex Form like Simrig or Smartlink.

No need. Use the DIMAP Program Option. Does exactly the same thing, with no fiddly bits.
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Rasumichin
post Apr 25 2011, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 25 2011, 10:26 AM) *
Do the SR4 Rules even still make the difference?
In SR3, It was either Basic or Cultured, where cultured Bio was the equivalent of Betaware for Bio and certain pieces had to be done in cultured. And in SR4, the cultured part seems to be only in the fluff, not in the crunch anymore. Seeing how Bio is now in grades of basic, alpha, beta and delta like cyber . .


Both categories exist for bioware nowadays, but cultured ware works differently than in SR1-3.
It doesn't provide an Essence cost reduction anymore, but it is still required for any kind of neural bioware.
This excludes it from benefitting from Type 0 system and from being available off the rack.
You can't walk down to the body shop and pick up a cerebral booster, they have to take a tissue sample first and grow it for you.

You can get the cerebral booster in alpha, beta or delta as well, though.
Just as you can get basic (not-cultured) bioware in any grade.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Apr 25 2011, 12:13 PM) *
Type O has its uses, although it's not good for everyone. I still have this idea lying around for a BioAdept with Type O and eventually Masking, to create a perfectly innocent-looking person chock-full of nearly undetectable delta-ish ware.


Bioware is always nearly undetectable, delta or not.
Cyberware scanners aren't able to detect any bioware at all and assensing bio always requires 4 hits, regardless of rating.
A standard-grade, basic muscle toner is as difficult to detect as a delta-grade, cultured cerebral booster.
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Ascalaphus
post Apr 25 2011, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Apr 25 2011, 01:19 PM) *
Bioware is always nearly undetectable, delta or not.
Cyberware scanners aren't able to detect any bioware at all and assensing bio always requires 4 hits, regardless of rating.
A standard-grade, basic muscle toner is as difficult to detect as a delta-grade, cultured cerebral booster.


Right, good point. That actually just makes it easier.
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Udoshi
post Apr 25 2011, 12:59 PM
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QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Apr 25 2011, 05:07 AM) *
No need. Use the DIMAP Program Option. Does exactly the same thing, with no fiddly bits.


Appreciate the sentiment, but my way's better.

2 karma for an expert system as a CF is way more efficient than 1 karma per option per emulation, which also costs more nuyen to buy, and takes up option slots on programs that may have, at max 2. Less options mean less hits on the learning test, too.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 25 2011, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 24 2011, 05:09 PM) *
Complex forms are ALSO limited by your resonance. So, sadly, no help there. Same ceiling.


You can, however, thread them to twice your Resonance Rating, which is often very useful indeed.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 25 2011, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 25 2011, 06:59 AM) *
Appreciate the sentiment, but my way's better.

2 karma for an expert system as a CF is way more efficient than 1 karma per option per emulation, which also costs more nuyen to buy, and takes up option slots on programs that may have, at max 2. Less options mean less hits on the learning test, too.


Or, Just thread the option when you think that you might need it, for absolutely no Karma Cost whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
But yes, I would rather purchase the Non-Rated CF than have to purchase the option for each CF.
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squee_nabob
post Apr 25 2011, 05:51 PM
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Quck answer: be very selective about lowering your essence. The TM bag of tricks are all based on having good resonance. With 3 or less, you should just be a hacker. I'd grab 1 or 2 at most.
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Mäx
post Apr 25 2011, 08:02 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 24 2011, 07:53 PM) *
1.Doesn't availability go up with the higher grades anymore?
2.Also, i don't think it's ever really been officially declared wether or not the type-o counts for basic bioware only . .
But yeah, i see your point.

1.No, nothing about this in the rules
2.What's exactly is is so unclear and in need of clarification when a rule says"Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same)." and the tables at the back of the book list 4 categories of bioware:Biosculpting, Cosmetic Bioware, Basic Bioware and Cultured Bioware.
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Saint Sithney
post Apr 25 2011, 08:23 PM
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Every point of starting resonance is crucial for the primary matrix role. It determines your staring CF levels, which are way cheaper to buy upfront with BP. It's your primary drain stat, and determines your sprite, threading and submersion-grade max. Basically, any time you think about dropping a point of Res, you need to look at what you're giving up and what you're getting.

Best combo?
PuSHeD for the +1 to logic-linked skills to help with CF loss. Some CFs aren't test-based, like ECCM and the Stealth threshold for hacking in, but most are rolled tests.
R2 Cerebral booster for Logic traditions to compensate for the loss of Drain dice. Int traditions get Quallia and Dynomitan.
Platelet Factories for -1 damage.
Used Alpha-grade Cyberhand with 4 dose Autoinjector (hit of Cram, hit of Overdrive, hit of Guts, hit of r6 Stim,) Biomonitor, Datajack, R1-2 Nanohive for the R3 Neural Amplifier Nanites to add to tests taken outside of cybercombat/stressful hacking.
Alpha-grade Math SPU for +2 on EW tests.
Alpha-grade Attention Coprocessor for +3 on perception tests. (will help with drone sensors.)

Total cost ~115,000¥ or 23bp and exactly 1 pt of essence.
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Saint Sithney
post Apr 25 2011, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 25 2011, 01:02 PM) *
1.No, nothing about this in the rules
2.What's exactly is is so unclear and in need of clarification when a rule says"Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same)." and the tables at the back of the book list 4 categories of bioware:Biosculpting, Cosmetic Bioware, Basic Bioware and Cultured Bioware.


The part where the tables list the price for basic cultured bioware.

It's a thing.
It's a grade.
It's a GM decision.
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