[X] My Assistant

[Stahlseele]

1.No, nothing about this in the rules

Wait . . they changed that?
So a basic datajack has the same availability like a delta synaptic accellerator?

[Mäx]

The part where the tables list the price for basic cultured bioware.

What table would that be, cant find it in the corebook nor in the augmentation.

So a basic datajack has the same availability like a delta synaptic accellerator?

Umm no, but a standard grade datajack has same availability as a delta grade datajack.
Ofcource you also need a delta clinic to instal the latter one, which has a much higher availability then a place that will instal the first one.

[Stahlseele]

But the Piece itself has the same availability no matter what grade? O.o
Under SR3 Rules, the Availability was a +4 for alpha, another +4 for Beta and another +4 for Delta, if i am remembering the numbers correctly . .
Of course, back then, Alpha, Beta, Delta only worked for Cyber, not for Bio. Bio had Standard and cultured(beta)

[Rasumichin]

But the Piece itself has the same availability no matter what grade? O.o

Yes.
Availability of the ware itself isn't really an issue when it comes to delta-grade implants, though. You need a delta clinic (Availability 24) to get it installed anyway.

The other grades are so common in the 2070s that availability isn't a problem, either. Alpha is sold everywhere, it is practically the new standard for wealthier customers. It is literally found in every mall that has a Body Shop or similar business.
Beta is available at every fully equipped hospital (which makes the "no beta at chargen" rule kinda nonsensical), no big deal either.

These grades have come a long way from being the cutting edge, experimental treatments they where back when the first edition of Street Samurai Catalogue came out.

[Stahlseele]

Well, fluffwise, everybody had Alpha in store even in 3rd Ed.
And most major Hospitals had Beta too. And still there was the no beta and no cultured bio in char gen.
But in Addition, there was the "no stuff with availability above 8" rule too. And no, there was no restricted gear quality.

[Summerstorm]

Humm? I thought there was... Has been a few years, but i really think i remember a way of getting higher-availability-gear at start.

Ah well. Can i just chime in and say: what does availibility matter in 4th ed. anyway? All it does is taking time, and it is pretty much impossible to "miss" the threshold. Even for -1 per roll (which i deem usable) you can easily hit something like 25+ with a good social pool/contacts.

[Falconer]

Every point of starting resonance is crucial for the primary matrix role. It determines your staring CF levels, which are way cheaper to buy upfront with BP. It's your primary drain stat, and determines your sprite, threading and submersion-grade max. Basically, any time you think about dropping a point of Res, you need to look at what you're giving up and what you're getting.

*snip*

Thanks a lot, this helps a bit. This mirrors a lot of what I'm noticing in the books. It strikes me that resonance is one of the few stats that might even be worth the +15BP extra cost to max out... Logic 5 unaugmented... max 10CF's each raise is worth 10BP... but 5->6 individually is 60 karma, 4->5 50 karma...

It strikes me that you want to be using your karma after play starts on submersions. Submersions are what really seems to make a TM shine. They strike me as a lot more important than initiations to an adept/mage.


A lot of the tricks were similar to what I was looking at low essence cost cyber/bio adding up to 1 or 2 points at most. But it is definitely striking me how very point starved you are. Lets face it, worst case you're looking at 1BP for a solid piece of software as a hacker. But you're looking at 5BP for the complex form as a TM.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, technomancers are much more focused/specialized than hackers, at least (or especially) at the beginning.

[Udoshi]

Or, Just thread the option when you think that you might need it, for absolutely no Karma Cost whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
But yes, I would rather purchase the Non-Rated CF than have to purchase the option for each CF.

Can't thread emulations ,chummer.

I think.

The errata may actually say the rating can't be increased with threading, so whipping up options on the fly may be legal because its not increasing the rating, but I'm too lazy to check right now.
An Unrated complex form is still better because i can have the emergency edge option AND thread up other options on the fly, for a total of 3 effective options - using an Expert System CF is basically the dimap on everything, without taking a slot.

Best combo?
PuSHeD for the +1 to logic-linked skills to help with CF loss. Some CFs aren't test-based, like ECCM and the Stealth threshold for hacking in, but most are rolled tests.
R2 Cerebral booster for Logic traditions to compensate for the loss of Drain dice. Int traditions get Quallia and Dynomitan.
Platelet Factories for -1 damage.
Used Alpha-grade Cyberhand with 4 dose Autoinjector (hit of Cram, hit of Overdrive, hit of Guts, hit of r6 Stim,) Biomonitor, Datajack, R1-2 Nanohive for the R3 Neural Amplifier Nanites to add to tests taken outside of cybercombat/stressful hacking.
Alpha-grade Math SPU for +2 on EW tests.
Alpha-grade Attention Coprocessor for +3 on perception tests. (will help with drone sensors.)

Couple nitpicks.

I believe you want a Trauma Damper(augmentation) not a platelet factory for -1 threading damage. Qualia and Dynomitan don't help Fading, because its not an int-linked skill test. Dareadrenaline, however, does, because it adds to Attribute tests.
Attention coprocessors are great, but Reception Enhancers are worth mentioning too - they also benefit Matrix perception tests.
Also, drugs give you +1 IP - don't forget this counts for the matrix too, so a technomancer can deck better by getting high.
Also, Pain Editors are worth considering, and definitely hilarious when cybercombat gets involved. With one, it becomes incredibly hard to deck a TM out, because they don't lose consciousness with an activated one, or suffer stun track penalties from threading or summoning sprites. It even improves your Firewall while its on (sorry, willpower)

On Type-O: Its actually possible to start with Type-O and Biocompatability, if you want super-mega-discounted bioware. Biocompatability(bioware) also has a nice benefit of working on Geneware, which is normally not possible to get any sort of discount on.

But thats 40 points, you say! Udo, it doesn't fit in the limit. But it does if you use Surge I to take biocompatability.

[redwulf25]

Humm? I thought there was... Has been a few years, but i really think i remember a way of getting higher-availability-gear at start.

Ah well. Can i just chime in and say: what does availibility matter in 4th ed. anyway? All it does is taking time, and it is pretty much impossible to "miss" the threshold. Even for -1 per roll (which i deem usable) you can easily hit something like 25+ with a good social pool/contacts.

You can make it alright, but can you make it before your deadline? If you need a specific piece of gear for a run taking place three days from now it doesn't do you much good to get that gear next week.

[Falconer]

Surge isn't an option in my case. I'm aware of that trick.


As far as the Expert System CF... I have no idea where you're getting that from. The section where it details the smartgun CF and that don't seem to support it. Since it's cyber it's most likely more than just a little bit of code, both smartgun and simsense recorder are available as non-essence equipment so I don't see that as replacing cyber. If you're taking a little bit of augmentation... .1 essence or less for the actual cyber is pretty low.


I'm unsure why you'd want a trauma damper over the platelets. The way the platelets are written they'd work on either stun or physical. The operative sentence is "Any time the user suffers 2 or more points of damage, the damage is instantly reduced by one point." The fluff portion of the paragraph hints at physical... but the hard rules text makes no ruling. I always took the trauma damper as a 2nd piece of bio you' take for a little more soak after you had the platelets.

[Yerameyahu]

Platelets are definitely physical, as explicitly written in the rules. There's no hinting.

The Expert System CF is a proposed house rule.

[Udoshi]

It was a comment on the previous page, you might have missed it: In my game, my Gm let me take it as a complex form, because its roughly similiar in essence/nuyen/cost/effect to other pieces of cyberware that may be mimiced with Unrated complex forms. Its a nifty solution, but if your GM is a rules lawyering grognard, well, its not going to work.

As for the trauma damper, here's why.

A trauma damper shifts 1 physical to stun, and one stun just goes away.

Fading is stun damage. (as long as you're not doing the equivalent of Overcasting)

Therefore, a trauma damper forever knocks 1 damage off ALL your threading and sprite summoning attempts, after the soak. Its a great way to prevent one damage here and one damage there from adding up into dice pool penalties. Its a bit of insurance against the dice screwing you.

A platelet factory, on the other hand, only kicks in if you're suffering two or more points of damage. This means that for it to work, you've already biffed your fading/soak test hard enough to take that much damage, but it still reduces it by 1 to a minimum of 1(effectively).
A trauma damper, on the other hand, can reduce it from 1 to zero, which makes it flat out better for casual protection from fading. Its absolutely worth the price in nuyen and essence for that.

A platelet factory is still great though, and comboes very nicely with a trauma. If you're planning on overcasting frequently, it is really excellent.

[Yerameyahu]

Not to derail, but the use of 'rules-lawyer' *and* 'grognard' both seem wrong. The *players* are rules-lawyers (by definition), and grognard doesn't mean 'hardass'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Unless in the sense that he forces you to play 1e, heh.

[Udoshi]

Last I checked, grognard was someone who tends to prefer an earlier edition of a game to the current one. Usually a D&D term, but...

In shadowrun, everyone's perception of the game and how it works is biased by how it used to work, the flavor of previous editions not matching up with the current stats, and belated realizations of 'you can't do that anymore?'. if there's anything I've noticed on dumpshock, its that people like to use in-game stat justifications for things we well as background/fluff justifications for things, so if you want to change something you often have to argue the game-mechanical angle and the common-sense angle at the same time. And when everyone's head is half-stuck in the previous edition, it makes things a little bit harder.

My group is blessed with a considerate GM who doesn't mind making exceptions if they don't make sense, or to just flat out do something neat.

... and other games who's gm's put the foot down on any idea, no matter how neat, that isn't in the book. Or just flat out ban things they don't agree with. (No surged furries! Infected are disallowed! You're only allowed three sourcebooks! There's too many awakened in the group already, and mages are supposed to be rare, so you can't be one). That kind of crap.

Ahem.

Now that I've explained myself, can we lay this tangent to rest?

[KarmaInferno]

What table would that be, cant find it in the corebook nor in the augmentation.

He probably ran into the same confusion I did, because I (correctly) remembered "standard" grade being listed as "basic" in 4th edition.

They changed it in the Anniversary edition. Presumably to avoid confusion with the basic vs cultured bioware categories.




-k

[Fortinbras]

"Grognard" was a slang term for members of Napoleon's Old Guard. Hardcore board wargamers adopted it as a term for themselves.

It means that one is invested in a system to the exclusion of others.

[longbowrocks]

Etymology-wise, wouldn't a grognard be someone who stores alcohol in their testicles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Biocompatability(bioware) also has a nice benefit of working on Geneware, which is normally not possible to get any sort of discount on.

No it explicitly doesn't apply to genetech.

Biocompatability
Cost: 10 BP
Something about the character’s body is exceptionally accepting
of either bioware or cyberware implants (choose one). Not
only are the implants not rejected, but they seamlessly fit within
the body, having less impact on its holistic integrity. In game terms,
the Essence Cost of implants of the particular chosen type are reduced
by 10 percent. This reduction does not apply to genetech.
This quality may only be taken once.

[Saint Sithney]

A platelet factory is still great though, and comboes very nicely with a trauma. If you're planning on overcasting frequently, it is really excellent.

When is Fading ever not physical? If you don't already have your CFs equal or near your Res, you're starting messed up. And, unless you're compiling during a run (and why would you do that, when you can register, without cost, non-stop, in your home's nifty Resonance well, long before the run starts?) then you gotta risk that hard fizz.

If you're worried about the fact that you need at least two damage to gain any benefit, that's not really too much of a concern. If you only take one damage, First Aid that shit same as you do after the platelet factory works. Remote Control actions are a simple thing from VR. You do same as you would after the Platelet Factories get to work. I'd rather heal 2 leftover physical after platelets than 2 phys 1 stun from a dampener.

[Saint Sithney]

He probably ran into the same confusion I did, because I (correctly) remembered "standard" grade being listed as "basic" in 4th edition.

They changed it in the Anniversary edition. Presumably to avoid confusion with the basic vs cultured bioware categories.




-k

Compiled Tables - Implant Surgery.

Implant Surgery (Cyberware/Bioware)
Basic Grade Medicine (Implant Surgery) + Logic (4, 1 hour) *
Basic Grade (Cultured Bioware) Medicine (Implant Surgery) + Logic (8, 1 hour) *

[Mäx]

Compiled Tables - Implant Surgery.

Same source, implant grades.
IMPLANT GRADES
Grade Essence Cost Multiplier Availability Modifi er Cost Multiplier Page
Standard 1 — 1 313, SR4A
Second-hand 1.2 –1 0.5 32, AU
Alphaware 0.8 — 2 313, SR4A
Betaware 0.7 — 4 313, SR4A
Deltaware 0.5 — 10 313, SR4A

The basic grade in that table is obviously a typo and you know that, so i really don't see why you even mention it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

When is Fading ever not physical? If you don't already have your CFs equal or near your Res, you're starting messed up. And, unless you're compiling during a run (and why would you do that, when you can register, without cost, non-stop, in your home's nifty Resonance well, long before the run starts?) then you gotta risk that hard fizz.

Well, it is not Physical if you do not thread above your Resonance rating. And, I am pretty sure that Technomancers cannot afford the 26 (or so) CF's that are rated as Programs. If you do not have it, even on the Fly, you must thread it to use it. You Cannot even attempt a test that requires a Program (or CF) if you do not HAVE that Program (or CF). So, Unless you are going to go crazy threading a non-existant CF to levels higher than your Resonance, it will only be stun damage.

If you're worried about the fact that you need at least two damage to gain any benefit, that's not really too much of a concern. If you only take one damage, First Aid that shit same as you do after the platelet factory works. Remote Control actions are a simple thing from VR. You do same as you would after the Platelet Factories get to work. I'd rather heal 2 leftover physical after platelets than 2 phys 1 stun from a dampener.

But if you took 3 Physical Damage (Enough to activate both systems), you end with 1 Physical and 1 Stun. Which is much easier to heal than 2 Physical is. In addition, if all that incoming damage was Stun to start with, you now only have 1 Stun box filled (assuming you allow both systems to apply to stun; some tables do and some don't), rather than 2. Seems like that is much better to me.

[Saint Sithney]

Same source, implant grades.
IMPLANT GRADES
Grade Essence Cost Multiplier Availability Modifi er Cost Multiplier Page
Standard 1 — 1 313, SR4A
Second-hand 1.2 –1 0.5 32, AU
Alphaware 0.8 — 2 313, SR4A
Betaware 0.7 — 4 313, SR4A
Deltaware 0.5 — 10 313, SR4A

The basic grade in that table is obviously a typo and you know that, so i really don't see why you even mention it.

Oh you Germans and your actual errata...

[Saint Sithney]

Well, it is not Physical if you do not thread above your Resonance rating. And, I am pretty sure that Technomancers cannot afford the 26 (or so) CF's that are rated as Programs. If you do not have it, even on the Fly, you must thread it to use it. You Cannot even attempt a test that requires a Program (or CF) if you do not HAVE that Program (or CF). So, Unless you are going to go crazy threading a non-existant CF to levels higher than your Resonance, it will only be stun damage.



But if you took 3 Physical Damage (Enough to activate both systems), you end with 1 Physical and 1 Stun. Which is much easier to heal than 2 Physical is. In addition, if all that incoming damage was Stun to start with, you now only have 1 Stun box filled (assuming you allow both systems to apply to stun; some tables do and some don't), rather than 2. Seems like that is much better to me.

With a threaded Command CF and a R6 medkit, a solid TM can get an average 5 or more hits on a remote first aid test. Any damage less than 3 is inconsequential outside of combat. And there really aren't that many programs you need as CFs.