[X] My Assistant

[Grinder]

Back to topic, please. Keep in mind that the board language is English.

[Stahlseele]

Back to topic, please. Keep in mind that the board language is English.

Party-Pooper.
And i stay with my first comment in this thread.
Fluff will do nothing to fix strong mages. Crunch will.
Racism will not fix mages either. Background Count will.
If you wanna go with racism, have it raise the BGC. Bam, fluff and crunch fix.

[Xahn Borealis]

If you wanna go with racism, have it raise the BGC. Bam, fluff and crunch fix.

"You fail to cast the spell, because the universe HATES you, you stinking mage."

[Stahlseele]

"You fail to cast the spell, because the universe HATES you, you stinking mage."

i'm fine with that.

[Grinder]

Back to topic, please. Keep in mind that the board language is English.

Party-Pooper.

Neither cool nor funny.

[Xahn Borealis]

I thought it was funny.

[Stahlseele]

I was thinking about writing Spielverderber instead.
Fact is, you can't fix mages without changing the rules.
Because everybody who could tell it's a mage would have to be a mage too.
An Anti-Magic-Terror-Group could procure HUGE quantities of FAB3 and aerosol-carpet-bomb seattle for example . .
This would get rid of most anything in the city . .

[Grinder]

I thought it was funny.

I've read/ understood it as an insult towards me.

[Xahn Borealis]

If he wanted to insult you, I think he could've done better than 'Party Pooper'.

[LurkerOutThere]

As others have said, the problems with magic are mechanical not thematic. Magic is A) Good, or at least no worse then anyone else at everything B) Hard to counter without magic. It has no ceiling on capabilities and is very very versatile. That and lets face it a lot of the spells wern't very well designed.

Eliminate sustaining foci or bring back some form of the grounding rules. (My personal version allows you to ground to targets on the same plane but not others. So for example if you throw a fireball on the astral at a dual natured target you get a fireball effect on the astral centered on the target but no matching effect in the meat world.
Enforce line of site, if a mage can't see it they can't affect it. I also require this for sustaining, if a mage can no longer see the target he's sustaining the spell on he can't sustain on it anymore.

[Grinder]

If he wanted to insult you, I think he could've done better than 'Party Pooper'.

True that, but I would had appreciated it much much more if he just posted no reply to it.

[Dakka Dakka]

Eliminate sustaining foci or bring back some form of the grounding rules. (My personal version allows you to ground to targets on the same plane but not others. So for example if you throw a fireball on the astral at a dual natured target you get a fireball effect on the astral centered on the target but no matching effect in the meat world.

Wasn't Grounding called the possibility to cast spells from one plane to the other? Since SR3 at least this is no longer possible. Reintroducing it would actually make magic more powerful. By RAW you could not do what you did in your example. In SR4 all spells only affect the plane they are cast upon. PERIOD. Moreover indirect Combat Spells cannot be cast onthe Astral Plane at all.

Enforce line of site, if a mage can't see it they can't affect it. I also require this for sustaining, if a mage can no longer see the target he's sustaining the spell on he can't sustain on it anymore.

A) How could you make anyone invisible with this houserule? B) How can a mage sustain any spell on himself?

Mages are as good as mundanes at everything? Tell me how do you use magic as effectively as mundane means to:
- Control the Matrix?
- Control Drones?
- Take out Drones?
- Socially interact with people?
- Do several of the above without massive Karma expenditure?

All PCs are powerful and all have their niche. I don't see any more problem witha mage than with other characters.

[Yerameyahu]

Those are all obvious, except the last one. There is *some* balance in the game.

[Cheops]

Why the hell would anyone be angry or upset in the Utopia world of SR4? Just in the Barrens I guess but everywhere else people are living in a post-singularity virtual world with magic that allows environmentalism, transhumanism, and communal living that is unimaginable in our real world. The only reason SR is still gritty is because of past editions and because the devs wink and tell us it is.

[CanRay]

I'll say it again: "First Rule Of Combat: Geek the Mage First!"

As soon as anyone does any spellslinging that's obvious, or a spirit shows up, every team that's trained in the Sixth World immediately starts looking for signs of the magician in question and puts EVERY bit of firepower on them as soon as possible.

It's worse than being a Machine Gunner today.

[longbowrocks]

"You fail to cast the spell, because the universe HATES you, you stinking mage."

Except a starting mage can cast spells in any listed background count (except -12) by overcasting.

Speaking of the -12 background count: that is the lowest one listed in street magic, but I believe -12 is only the lowest possible for inhabited areas of space. Uninhabited areas should have an infinitely negative BC, and areas inhabited by a single person (like some guy who got in a pod and flung himself to the edge of space) should be far beyond -12.

Like physical perception, a character using astral perception
should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately
obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means
that most astral forms are easily noticed). An actual test should only

On the physical plane, mana cannot be seen,
tasted, or touched, but the Awakened can sense it and
manipulate it. The mana here seems inherently tied
to the mana on the astral plane, flowing in the same
eddies and currents.

[longbowrocks]

Testing testing 123. Just wanted to see if I could nest quotes.

[Dakka Dakka]

Except a starting mage can cast spells in any listed background count (except -12) by overcasting.

Read the rules. Any starting mage will become temporarily mundane at a BC of unaspected +/-6 as BC reduces his MAG Attribute by its absolute value.

Speaking of the -12 background count: that is the lowest one listed in street magic, but I believe -12 is only the lowest possible for inhabited areas of space. Uninhabited areas should have an infinitely negative BC, and areas inhabited by a single person (like some guy who got in a pod and flung himself to the edge of space) should be far beyond -12.

What makes you think that there can be a BC of less than -12? The lowest concentrations of Mana are called voids and range from -12 to -7. How much less than no mana can there be? Moreover what would purpose would a lesser value serve? Not even (unnamed) Great Dragons can cast in a void of -12! Being able to have an effective MAG 1 in a -12 Void would mean starting at MAG 6 initiating 7 times, and buying 7 increases to the MAG Attribute for a PC or NPC. That is a hell of a lot Karma (I'm to lazy to calculate exactly how much). Oh and don't forget the measly Force 2 Spell is as draining as a Force 14 spell.

[Yerameyahu]

Being forced to overcast is not nothing.

[longbowrocks]

Read the rules. Any starting mage will become temporarily mundane at a BC of unaspected +/-6 as BC reduces his MAG Attribute by its absolute value.

Slip of the tongue. I meant he could cast into a BC of anything better than -12.

How much less than no mana can there be? Moreover what would purpose would a lesser value serve?

If it's possible to use mana in a space, then how can there be none? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Apathy]

If YOU are in space, and you're a living thing, and living things generate mana, then the immediate area around you isn't a completely hard mana vacumn. A single individual only generates an infintessimally small quantity of mana, but if you're mr uber-mage with magic 13 then maybe you will be able to scrape it together and use it to cast that force 1 fireball that nevertheless kills you with its force 13 drain...

Edit: Incidentally I agree that regular background count is the natural 'crunch' counter to magic.

[Dakka Dakka]

Slip of the tongue. I meant he could cast into a BC of anything better than -12.

Ah Ok. Still at +/-11 an overcast Force 12 spell would become a "scary" Force 1 and still 6P+Modifiers drain.

If it's possible to use mana in a space, then how can there be none? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

All a high level initiate has is his own mana.

[Xahn Borealis]

THen along come the scary NPCs with their GM-sanctioned metamagics that let them keep manaspheres in their pockets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Huh what now?

[Xahn Borealis]

How raped would the PCs be if they were stuck in an astral void, while that Bad Guy isn't affected by it?