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> Manatech Applications, As rules evolve, so must our understanding of them
longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:15 AM
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I wanted to start off slow, but this discussion has progressed quite a ways in "broken rules", so I'll kinda jump into it at the risk of sounding crazy.

My main concerns are with bone black makeup and FAB, but if anyone else has ideas about how manatech could be used, feel free to share!

Here's the thing: bone black makeup and FAB should make you aware of spells, spirits, auras, and all other inhabitants of the astral plane to varying degrees. In some cases, these technologies should even allow you to distinguish between a spirit, and, say, an aura.

Here's a short post that I was about to put into "broken rules", just to start us off:
QUOTE
Auras, spirits, and spells = mana. They are all supported by or support the gaiasphere.
(some) Spirits are strong concentrations of mana. Thus, when you disperse FAB into the air, the effect is strong enough to distinguish their silhouettes (RAW).
Auras are (generally) weaker than spirits, but they also are made of mana/life force. By spreading FAB through the air, you won't get anything as solid as a silhouette, but you will be able to notice something if someone's aura passes through them.
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 25 2011, 01:21 AM
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I always treated the mana/astral detection tech as a way of cutting security costs.

It's expensive to have astral security up all the time. Either wage-mages or spirits hanging out guarding stuff.

So for less-critical areas, a cheap easy way of detecting astral signatures that shouldn't be there is nice. You can position mundane guards to watch the detector, and if it goes off, they call the mage on staff. That way you can have just one or two mages in your security team overseeing multiple facilities. When the wagemage gets an alert call, he spins up a spirit quickly and sends him on ahead, following up in person if necessary.




-k
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 01:30 AM
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I'm not actually sure to what extent you can say that auras, spells, spirits, projecting mages, etc. have different 'levels' of strength, size, whatever. We do have the Force stat for many kinds of astral phenomenon, although I don't know if spirit Force, projecting mage Magic, spell Force, etc. are comparable.

I'm also not sure if any of the manatech provides a variable (strength-proportionate) response, even if the first issue were resolved. We don't have anything even as good as the PKE Meter from Ghostbusters, and that was pretty imprecise already. (We *do* have a BC meter, but it's only for BC.)

Obviously, I do agree that the leeches, etc. are effective detectors for areas when *any* astral presence would be suspect. But they don't give any information besides 0 or 1, absent or present. Don't forget, also, that *everyone* has an aura; it's 'astral forms' that are active on the astral. Spells also have auras, so an invisible person would have the spell aura… but that's not helpful for manatech, because they already have an aura for being alive, and manatech can't tell the difference (can't even tell that there are two auras there).
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:34 AM
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I was thinking more along the lines of:
You have a sneaking suspicion that someone is trying to make their way through the gate of your facility, but they have some heavy stealth up (or they're in astral form). You throw a sack of FAB out towards the gate and let it spread on the wind. A small area of FAB browns slightly, but you can't tell a shape. This indicates either a spell or an aura, so you take a shot into the midst of the browned spot. Turns out you hit a guy in a full chameleon suit.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 01:38 AM
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Sounds like a good way to go through expensive FAB. If you control the gate and you're looking for a chameleon, you should just use UWB radar, or thermal, or ultrasound—cheaper and more reliable. Especially since it *only* works on astral forms, not auras.

If you actually suspect an astral form (spirit or mage), then they can just fly in from above at like 500m/turn (I forget the actual speed), and through walls. Which is why they have those nifty (but pricey) biofiber/leech walls. Or the Awakened Ivy, whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) FAB is indeed another option, though.

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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 05:30 PM) *
manatech can't tell the difference (can't even tell that there are two auras there).

That's part of it. This would be left up to the character's intuition. As in: "wow, that's a lot of brown for just an aura. Is it a weak spirit? Maybe it really is an aura, but the individual responsible is under emotional stress. Then again, I can't see anything else, so maybe it's an invisible person, and the aura is larger because of their spell."
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Sephiroth
post Apr 25 2011, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 24 2011, 08:34 PM) *
I was thinking more along the lines of:
You have a sneaking suspicion that someone is trying to make their way through the gate of your facility, but they have some heavy stealth up (or they're in astral form). You throw a sack of FAB out towards the gate and let it spread on the wind. A small area of FAB browns slightly, but you can't tell a shape. This indicates either a spell or an aura, so you take a shot into the midst of the browned spot. Turns out you hit a guy in a full chameleon suit.

That would only really work in foveae or in space. Mana isn't just found in spells, astral forms, and (to a much lesser extent) auras; mana is freaking EVERYWHERE. That sort of use of FAB would turn up false positives more or less constantly.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 08:38 PM) *
If you actually suspect an astral form (spirit or mage), then they can just fly in from above at like 500m/turn (I forget the actual speed), and through walls. Which is why they have those nifty (but pricey) biofiber/leech walls. Or the Awakened Ivy, whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) FAB is indeed another option, though.

5000, actually, although they have to know where they're going at that speed.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 05:38 PM) *
Sounds like a good way to go through expensive FAB. If you control the gate and you're looking for a chameleon, you should just use UWB radar, or thermal, or ultrasound—cheaper and more reliable. Especially since it *only* works on astral forms, not auras.

If you actually suspect an astral form (spirit or mage), then they can just fly in from above at like 500m/turn (I forget the actual speed), and through walls. Which is why they have those nifty (but pricey) biofiber/leech walls. Or the Awakened Ivy, whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) FAB is indeed another option, though.

Depends. A cloud of FAB II will limit that speed to 100 m/turn.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 01:42 AM
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Which is hella fast! But I meant you'd have to put the cloud in the right place. It can't cover the gate and the sky at once, unless you're using much more expensive FAB.

longbowrocks, I might have edited out from under you there: FAB does *not* detect auras (spell, person, or otherwise). Even if it did, I still have no idea if there's an 'amount' effect, if a person + a spell is 'bigger' or 'stronger'.
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 25 2011, 01:43 AM
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QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Apr 24 2011, 08:34 PM) *
I was thinking more along the lines of:
You have a sneaking suspicion that someone is trying to make their way through the gate of your facility, but they have some heavy stealth up (or they're in astral form). You throw a sack of FAB out towards the gate and let it spread on the wind. A small area of FAB browns slightly, but you can't tell a shape. This indicates either a spell or an aura, so you take a shot into the midst of the browned spot. Turns out you hit a guy in a full chameleon suit.

If's it's a guy in a chameleon suit, there's a really cheap and easy way of detecting him.

It's called a door.




-k
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:48 AM
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QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Apr 24 2011, 05:39 PM) *
That would only really work in foveae or in space. Mana isn't just found in spells, astral forms, and (to a much lesser extent) auras; mana is freaking EVERYWHERE. That sort of use of FAB would turn up false positives more or less constantly.

However, auras are a disturbance from their surrounding ambient mana. Plants and such will have less in the way of auras than people, so no worries there. I think the only things exceeding an aura in force would be spells, astral forms, and positive BC. Since positive BC is more of a wide area of effect, auras would be fluctuations within the BC, and thus detectable (to a lesser extent than usual I admit).

Speaking of background count, do they have Rush Limbaugh in the future? My party and I could probably generate a substantial positive BC by listening to him over our commlinks during a run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 01:51 AM
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It's important to focus on the rules. FAB only detects astral forms, period. That's spirits, projecting mages, and anything Dual-Natured (though they're already physical so it's not a huge deal). Other manatech does detect other things: GloMoss is specifically described as generating many false positives, because it detects "active foci, spells, mana barriers, dual-natured beings, and mana anomalies"… but not other auras, in case it's relevant.

I want to again say that it's tricky to make assumptions about relative 'strength' of 'mana disturbance' between plants, animals, humans, etc. There is *some* guidance for this in the fluff, but everyone needs to be on the same page; that's what the rules are for.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 05:42 PM) *
FAB does *not* detect auras (spell, person, or otherwise).

That's what we're arguing, or at least what I'm arguing. The rules don't discourage this interpretation, and the FAB detects an astral form because it has mana/life force, not because they're called astral forms.
Likewise, magnetic compasses sense north because it's magnetic. not because we called it north.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 01:57 AM
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Ah. You're wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) FAB explicitly detects only astral forms. You propose an interesting house rule, but not an interpretation.

You're also wrong about how the FAB works. The presence of the astral form (a real thing, on the astral plane) *kills* the FAB (or pushes it out of the way, for FAB II). Auras do not do this, because they're *not* a 'physical' thing on the astral plane; for example, they can't push astral forms (which FAB II is).
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 01:59 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 05:51 PM) *
GloMoss is specifically described as generating many false positives, because it detects "active foci, spells, mana barriers, dual-natured beings, and mana anomalies"

keep in mind what sort of things might give those false positives so you can gauge the actual frequency:
"triggered by authorized spellcasting, patrolling spirits, and temporary background count."
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 02:01 AM
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I didn't say GloMoss was worthless. I said the book mentions false positives, because it detects things besides just astral forms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) GloMoss might help you spot an Invisible infiltrator, yes, but see my earlier comments about alternatives. The GloWand is an even handier version, like a metal detector wand for spells.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 05:57 PM) *
You're also wrong about how the FAB works. The presence of the astral form (a real thing, on the astral plane) *kills* the FAB (or pushes it out of the way, for FAB II).

Astral forms are (again) made up of the same stuff as auras. You might argue that auras are too weak to kill the FAB, but it can't be said that the situation is completely different.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 05:57 PM) *
Auras do not do this, because they're *not* a 'physical' thing on the astral plane; for example, they can't push astral forms (which FAB II is).

This is like the difference between mist and water. Would you say that mist can push a waterwheel? No. If mist is passed over flame, will it douse the flame? Possibly.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 02:05 AM
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No. Astral forms are forms on the astral; auras are lights. It's the difference between a brick hitting you, and a hologram of a brick. These are the hard facts of the setting. I see what you're saying, but it's not interpretation; it's house rule.

I don't have Attitude, so I dunno what the specific rules are for the Bone stuff. Leechbands/leech constructs (Arsenal) also only detect astral forms.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 02:09 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 06:05 PM) *
No. Astral forms are forms on the astral; auras are lights. It's the difference between a brick hitting you, and a hologram of a brick. These are the hard facts of the setting. I see what you're saying, but it's not interpretation; it's house rule.

I don't have Attitude, so I dunno what the specific rules are for the Bone stuff. Leechbands/leech constructs (Arsenal) also only detect astral forms.

fine, we can use the hologram metaphor.
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longbowrocks
post Apr 25 2011, 02:10 AM
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On the other hand, I am seeing the fluff about astral forms being "astrally real" as I peruse the core book in more detail. Ah well, I'll give this another shot tomorrow.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 02:10 AM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's an analogy, and it's not relevant to bring in other aspects. The point is it's the difference between 'material' and 'immaterial'.

So, anyway, what are we talking about in this thread? You haven't mentioned the bone stuff, and I dunno about it, so that'll have to wait.

The manatech I'm aware of falls into a few categories. First, there are things that detect astral forms (and sometimes other things): FAB, leeches, (GloMoss). Then, you've got passive defenses: Ivy, Biofiber, (Haven Lily). Finally, active defenses: Guardian Vines, FAB III. What else? Manatech's not my strong suit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It doesn't seem like the Lucifers are good for much (to a mundane, anyway), and the Quicksilver photo is more investigatory.
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Sephiroth
post Apr 25 2011, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 24 2011, 09:10 PM) *
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's an analogy, and it's not relevant to bring in other aspects. The point is it's the difference between 'material' and 'immaterial'.

Exactly. That's one of the reasons why a spirit has to push through an FAB II cloud, but a mundane can just walk through it: astral forms are solid and cannot pass through one another, while auras are completely insubstantial on the astral.
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toturi
post Apr 25 2011, 03:41 AM
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IIRC for what follows:
Even using astral perception, when trying to beat someone using Infiltration requires Assensing (the astral Perception skill). When detecting Astral Forms that are not Infiltrating using astral perception, they are immediately noticeable (no need to roll). Everything else still requires an Assensing test.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 25 2011, 03:46 AM
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It's my understanding that the GM has considerable leeway for that opposed test, though. And we're talking about physical infiltration, not astral, right? You'd expect a certain level of unfairness there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In previous threads, we've discussed the many factors that can improve/penalize astral perception, but the basic idea is that they need a reasonable ability to infiltrate in a way that's relevant to astral perception. Right? This can be hiding behind objects or among other auras, mainly; a person in an area that should be empty would be obvious.

I agree that Infiltration should do *something*, but Assensing DPs aren't like Perception DPs; it's a big deal to go from 'probably obvious' to 'you have to beat his Infiltration, and he wins ties'.
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