[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Except that is clearly a house rule. Some people are allergic to the word.

Tymeaus, I thought you guys didn't use the whole (highly controversial) SnS-kills-spirits thing. Must've mis-remembered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Adarael]

From an anectdotal perspective, I had a player whose character was a pistol adept in my last game. He would rock heavy pistols with EX-EX or APDS on a regular basis, and he'd blow force 6 spirits away with shocking regularity. Now, he wasn't average, per se, but still. This is roughly what his breakdown was when he killed his first spirit:

Agility 8, Pistols 6, +3 dice from improved ability, +2 from a specialization, smartlink +2, so... 21 dice. At those numbers, he would statistically be expected to get 7 hits on his attacks (at close range), to the spirit's dodge of 2. With either Ex-Ex or APDS, that's jumping right through ITNW. Not to mention that usually he would call a shot for extra damage.

[longbowrocks]

What is ITNW?
Also, instead of calling the shot, Why didn't he just attack normally? twice as many attacks -> twice as many kills against stuff like force 6 spirits.

[Mäx]

Also, instead of calling the shot, Why didn't he just attack normally? twice as many attacks -> twice as many kills against stuff like force 6 spirits.

Or zero damage becouse you can't beat the spirits Immunity To Normal Weapons.

[Adarael]

Yeah. You need to exceed the Immunity to Normal Weapons threshold (Force x2) in damage for the attack to not automatically be reduced to 0. He could probably get away with snap-shotting spirits, but sometimes they'd roll better than he expected, or use edge, or lighting/cover conditions wouldn't be optimal, and he wouldn't wanna chance them having a good enough dodge roll to bounce the round, so he'd call a shot for extra damage.

Also, calling a shot is a free action, so he'd be making the same number of attacks regardless.

[longbowrocks]

You need to make a take aim action (generally a simple, with one exception) to take the free action for a called shot.

All in all, a called shot is one action phase for a gun user, or 1.5 for a bow user.

[TheOOB]

SNS Ammo is cheap and easily available, Force 6 Spirits fall like Flies, according to DUmpshockers... You done?

Stick and shock ammo is four times as much as regular rounds(2.6 times as much as gel rounds). Shadowrunners use it, but corp security and gangers will rarely make that expense to take intruders alive. As we are talking about player abilities, we have to think about what players opposition usually has.

[Dakka Dakka]

Stick and shock ammo is four times as much as regular rounds(2.6 times as much as gel rounds). Shadowrunners use it, but corp security and gangers will rarely make that expense to take intruders alive. As we are talking about player abilities, we have to think about what players opposition usually has.

I agree that gangers probably won't use SnS very much, but Corp Sec probably will. While it is more expensive, they reduce collateral damage and all the bad press that entails. Additionally it offers an opportunity to question the intruders after stopping them.

[Adarael]

You need to make a take aim action (generally a simple, with one exception) to take the free action for a called shot.

All in all, a called shot is one action phase for a gun user, or 1.5 for a bow user.

No you don't. You can follow the Call a Shot action with Take Aim if you want, but you can also immediately follow it with pulling a trigger. SR4A, p. 146: "Call a Shot: A character may "call a shot" (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack."

On p. 161, there is no mention of needing to aim.

[longbowrocks]

A character can aim (see Take Aim, p. 148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action.

I read that as: A character can (aim and then call a
shot at the time of the attack). Calling the shot is a Free Action.

So I see that as a take aim action followed by a simple action.
Can we get opinions on this? I would love to be able to make called shots as free actions.
I just don't want to feel like I'm cheating.

[Yerameyahu]

As Adarael said, it's on the Free Action list, p161. Done. Due to the way the numbers work, Called Shots basically *are* cheating in many cases. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The GM can disallow whenever they're not appropriate… but SR4 is also just deadly. NPCs can do it, too, and not everyone has 21 dice.

[longbowrocks]

As Adarael said, it's on the Free Action list, p161. Done. Due to the way the numbers work, Called Shots basically *are* cheating in many cases. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The GM can disallow whenever they're not appropriate… but SR4 is also just deadly. NPCs can do it, too, and not everyone has 21 dice.

Alright. Sounds good then.

Before letting it lie, let me just point out that called shots would be balanced if they required 2 simple actions and a free. Now that I've discovered they only require a free action, all my weapons suddenly have +4 DV. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Mäx]

As Adarael said, it's on the Free Action list, p161. Done.

It being on the list of free actions actually has nothing what so ever to do with whether or not you need to take aim action before you can call a shot, subject of witch the rules are little confusing about.
Page 146 has this
"A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target)
with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be
immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon,
or Melee Unarmed Attack."
Page 161 says this
"A character can only make a called shot with weapons that fire
in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes, as well as melee
weapons. A character can aim (see Take Aim, p. 148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action."
The under lined part kinda implies that you have to Take aim first and then call the shot.

[longbowrocks]

The under lined part kinda implies that you have to Take aim first and then call the shot.

That's the way I originally read it. However, it can just as easily be read their way. The sentence following the underlined part seems to clarify that the entire action is a free action.

Besides, when in doubt, take the route that leads to easy dragonslaying.

[TheOOB]

While the text says you can take aim with a called shot, it never says it has too, and on pg 146 of SR4A it just says you need to take a free action to call the shot, and then says what actions may follow it.

[Adarael]

Yeah, Longbow, that's pretty much my way of looking at it: while I appreciate that it may be more accurate to take aim and then call a shot, it is more *awesome* to be able to call a shot from nowhere, and affords people an easier time popping pesky monsters. And I like to go with Awesome over Accuracte.

[Mäx]

While the text says you can take aim with a called shot

There would be no problem if it said that, but it says you can take aim and then you can call the shot, witch is a pretty big difference.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Forgive me for implying that you or your group would use a house rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I meant to say, that your group considers anything force 4 and above really powerful, so powerful that certain rules get applied to them and not to lower force spirits. And then to see you argue that force 6 spirits are easily taken out by small arms fire, well, seemed as I said, disingenuous. I'm objecting to this mostly because I agree with your point of view in this thread.

Heheh... No Worries. We do see spirits at Force 4+ as Powerful, as does the Fluff of Shadowrun. And sadly, Force 6 and lower Spirits are easily taken out by Such weapons as Tasers and SnS.

Thanks for the Support... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that is clearly a house rule. Some people are allergic to the word.

Tymeaus, I thought you guys didn't use the whole (highly controversial) SnS-kills-spirits thing. Must've mis-remembered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just because I do not agree completely with it does not mean that it does not get used in our Games. I tend to leave that stuff to the Mages, though. Many (but not most) of my characters have either a Tazer or SnS Rounds for Spirit Defense. I actually prefer the Big Handheld Tazer, takes care of Spirits up to Force 8 fairly easily. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No Worries though, Yerameyahu. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Stick and shock ammo is four times as much as regular rounds(2.6 times as much as gel rounds). Shadowrunners use it, but corp security and gangers will rarely make that expense to take intruders alive. As we are talking about player abilities, we have to think about what players opposition usually has.

Why? The average Mage is going to summon an Average Force 2-3 Spirit. Corp Security rarely is going to have an Issue with those. By the Same Token, the Average Runner team will have even less of an Issue. You may be happy using the Extremes to compare notes, but I am not, so I use the averages, with an ocassional oddity thrown in.

To each his own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[redwulf25]

Why? The average Mage is going to summon an Average Force 2-3 Spirit. Corp Security rarely is going to have an Issue with those. By the Same Token, the Average Runner team will have even less of an Issue. You may be happy using the Extremes to compare notes, but I am not, so I use the averages, with an ocassional oddity thrown in.

To each his own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

The average mage on a team of Shadowrunners will be summoning a force 5 or 6 spirit. The average shadowrunner is an above average person.

[TheOOB]

Why? The average Mage is going to summon an Average Force 2-3 Spirit. Corp Security rarely is going to have an Issue with those. By the Same Token, the Average Runner team will have even less of an Issue. You may be happy using the Extremes to compare notes, but I am not, so I use the averages, with an ocassional oddity thrown in.

To each his own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

2-3 is an extreme for a player, player character shadowrunner mages usually have 5-6 magic to start. Haven't we gone over this allready?

Seriously, the game is called "Shadowrun", not "20 minute cardio run", why would I be playing a RPG to be an average person, I am an average person(well depends on your definition of average, but I certainly don't run raids against sovereign corporations).

A force 2-3 spirit can be taken out by random guy with a gun, a force 5-6 spirit takes a high degree of skill, specialized ammo, or heavy arms to take out, which most gangers, mobsters, and corp rent-a-cops don't have. That means an "average" magician's (who is well below average for a shadowrunner) spirits will get torn apart in 1 or two initiative passes, an average starting shadowrun magicians spirits will be difficult to defeat unless you are facing other runners or paramilitary+ level foes(which happens, but usually isn't all the time, at least not until the runner is summoning force 8-9 spirits which are tough even for that power level).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

2-3 is an extreme for a player, player character shadowrunner mages usually have 5-6 magic to start. Haven't we gone over this allready?

Seriously, the game is called "Shadowrun", not "20 minute cardio run", why would I be playing a RPG to be an average person, I am an average person(well depends on your definition of average, but I certainly don't run raids against sovereign corporations).

A force 2-3 spirit can be taken out by random guy with a gun, a force 5-6 spirit takes a high degree of skill, specialized ammo, or heavy arms to take out, which most gangers, mobsters, and corp rent-a-cops don't have. That means an "average" magician's (who is well below average for a shadowrunner) spirits will get torn apart in 1 or two initiative passes, an average starting shadowrun magicians spirits will be difficult to defeat unless you are facing other runners or paramilitary+ level foes(which happens, but usually isn't all the time, at least not until the runner is summoning force 8-9 spirits which are tough even for that power level).

We have gone over it, numerous times, and yet you still perpetrate the Myth that all Shadowrunners have a Magic Attribute of 5 or 6... That is simply not true, and you know it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yet... Force 6 Spirits get torn apart in 1 or two initiative passes already. So, whats the issue here really? Force 3 or Force 6, still only 1 or two initiative passes of effectiveness.

[phlapjack77]

A force 2-3 spirit can be taken out by random guy with a gun, a force 5-6 spirit takes a high degree of skill, specialized ammo, or heavy arms to take out, which most gangers, mobsters, and corp rent-a-cops don't have. That means an "average" magician's (who is well below average for a shadowrunner) spirits will get torn apart in 1 or two initiative passes, an average starting shadowrun magicians spirits will be difficult to defeat unless you are facing other runners or paramilitary+ level foes(which happens, but usually isn't all the time, at least not until the runner is summoning force 8-9 spirits which are tough even for that power level).

Sooooo...spirits are only ever useful in combat then? We should only measure their effectiveness by how well they hold up against an armed opponent?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sooooo...spirits are only ever useful in combat then? We should only measure their effectiveness by how well they hold up against an armed opponent?

Apparently... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)