[X] My Assistant

[sabs]

I still don't see how you're killing Force 6 Spirits with Immunity to Normal Weapons so easily. (Ignoring the stupidity that is stick and shock)

You need to do 12 DV against a dodge pool of 12.

Heavy Pistols:

Superhawk with APDS rounds: 6P -5AP
You still need 6 hits (so a dice pool of 15-20 depending) To do this consistently.
This is assuming that your GM lets ADPS rounds reduce the armor on ItNW, which given that the description for APDS rounds specifically says: It reduces the effectiveness of Ballistic Armor, it's not a guarantee.

A Superhawk with EX-EX rounds looks like: 7P -2AP needing 9 hits roughly to get through the ItNW.
Even if you do manage to get the 13 DV necessary

Called Shot: +4DV -4DP. This is up to GM decision though, supposedly you're targetting a vulnerable area. What vulnerable area does a Spirit with ItNW have? the ByPass Armor roll gives you a penalty = to the armor rating. Even still you need 3-4 hits on average to hit the spirit with the attack. 3-4 hits requires a dicepool of 12 to consider doing consistantly.

Even then, the Spirit still gets 18 dice to soak. So that 13DV attack, gets reduces 5 on average, down to 8.

I certainly don't call that easy, and most Security Personnel can't really pull that off without calling the big guns.

Rating 5/6 Combat Spirits are dangerous for the average combat npc. Force 9 Spirits are near impossible for them to hit. 18DV is hard to rate up, and 27 dice for soaking is... a lot.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I still don't see how you're killing Force 6 Spirits with Immunity to Normal Weapons so easily. (Ignoring the stupidity that is stick and shock)

You need to do 12 DV against a dodge pool of 12.

Heavy Pistols:

Superhawk with APDS rounds: 6P -5AP
You still need 6 hits (so a dice pool of 15-20 depending) To do this consistently.
This is assuming that your GM lets ADPS rounds reduce the armor on ItNW, which given that the description for APDS rounds specifically says: It reduces the effectiveness of Ballistic Armor, it's not a guarantee.

A Superhawk with EX-EX rounds looks like: 7P -2AP needing 9 hits roughly to get through the ItNW.
Even if you do manage to get the 13 DV necessary

Called Shot: +4DV -4DP. This is up to GM decision though, supposedly you're targetting a vulnerable area. What vulnerable area does a Spirit with ItNW have? the ByPass Armor roll gives you a penalty = to the armor rating. Even still you need 3-4 hits on average to hit the spirit with the attack. 3-4 hits requires a dicepool of 12 to consider doing consistantly.

Even then, the Spirit still gets 18 dice to soak. So that 13DV attack, gets reduces 5 on average, down to 8.

I certainly don't call that easy, and most Security Personnel can't really pull that off without calling the big guns.

Rating 5/6 Combat Spirits are dangerous for the average combat npc. Force 9 Spirits are near impossible for them to hit. 18DV is hard to rate up, and 27 dice for soaking is... a lot.

12 dice is pretty easy to acquire as a Starting Character. Call it Skill 3 for the Character, Give him Heavy pistols as a Speicalization (+2), a Smartlink (+2), and a Moderate Tacnet Bonus of +1. All yo need is an Attribute of 4 at that point for it to be an even roll against the Spirit's Defense. A more common Variety of Shadowrunner will have Skill 3-4, Specialty (+2), Smartlink (+2) Tacnet Bonus (+2) and a Stat of 7 (Still not maxed out) for a Dice Pool of 16-17 Dice. Which now heavily favors the Attacker against that Spirit. So, 12 Dice nets the Spirit 3-4 Hits (Average-Buy), and the more common Shadorunnner has 16-17 Dice for a 4-5 (Average-Buy). So you get a Net Bonus with Characters on top. So Any round/Weapon combination that can generate enough Damage will likely Get through.

SnS is the obvious Choice...
APDS in a Super Warhawk is the next logical Choice...
The Heavy Tazer works outstandingly...
Any Sniper Rifle with APDS Ammunition will make short work of Spirit aATargets as well.

It is not hard to kill spirits.

A 6p Weapon with -5 AP only needs 2 Hits to cause net wounds to the spirit. Not the 6 you are talking about. Armor piercing works against the Hardened Armor just like it does everything else. You really need to look at those rules a bit more. Hardened Armor is BOTH Ballistic and Impact. If it affects either of those things, it affects Hardened Armor.

Force 9 Spirits are so rare in Canon that they should not even be part of the conversation. Anything above Force 6, for that matter should be rare indeed.

[sabs]

Yeah, 2 net hits, above the spirits 3-4 hits. Which adds up to 5-6 hits needed on your roll to pull it off consistantly.

That 17 DP character has a hard time getting 6 hits consistantly.
It's not quite simple, and it's certainly nigh impossible for the average Mafia Goon.

[Adarael]

The problem isn't REALLY killing Force 6 Spirits, in my experience. That's an accomplishable goal. It's killing Force 6 Spirits before they totally wreck the crap out of at least one team member, or do something like Fear the guy with the big gun that can hurt them, while operating under Conceal. Because critter powers are rough, yo: no counterspelling against them.

[Mäx]

You need to do 12 DV against a dodge pool of 12.

If the the spirit has 12+ dice for dodge means it went on full defence, so it doesn't even matter anymore whether you even hit or not, the spirit is allready out of combat.

[Mäx]

These forums so need flood control. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[sabs]

If the the spirit has 12+ dice for dodge means it went on full defence, so it doesn't even matter anymore whether you even hit or not, the spirit is allready out of combat.

Spirits get 3 IP, if it's on full D it still has 2IP

[Mäx]

Spirits get 3 IP, if it's on full D it still has 2IP

If it's on FD every time i shoot it, then no it doesn't have any IP:s left, unless i have have less then 3 IP:s.

[sabs]

Full Defense is a once per round thing, not per IP.
If you are fighting a guy with 1 IP and full defense, and you have 3 IP you don't get to shoot him once on FD and the rest on just reaction. That's not how full defense works.

Once you're on FD you're on FD for the whole round.

Holy shit, I've been playing shadowrun wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is fucked up.

Characters who are expecting to be attacked can spend a Complex
Action and go on full defense until their next Action Phase.

So there's 2 possible interpretations of this rule, both stupid.
1) I go on FD, if I have 1 IP then I'm in FD for the entire round. if I have multiple IP, then I'm only on FD for the current IP.
2) I go on FD, and If I have IP then I'm on FD for the current IP and that's it. So if someone has Multiple IPs, he just has to shoot me twice and my second IP I'm basically dead. His 12 dice, vs my 4 or 5 tops.

that's really.. fucked up.

[Yerameyahu]

Wires are good. In other news, sky = blue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's probably not productive to get into a complicated theoretical example. There are literally millions of possibilities: maybe the spirit starts with X, Y, or Z power first, or there are 3 other members of the team shooting also, or it's all thermal smoke, or any combination of a hundred other factors. Yes, certain combinations of things can neutralize the spirit. … So? It's not easy, especially for *NPCs* lacking all the runner metagaming powers. They still have high stats, nifty powers, flight, etc. Force 6 is a big deal, and low-magic mages don't really have the option.

What does this even have to do with combat spell houserules?

[sabs]

well, more importantly, not having at least 2 ip is bad. Like, non-combatant, you're a chump bad.

[Mäx]

So there's 2 possible interpretations of this rule, both stupid.
1) I go on FD, if I have 1 IP then I'm in FD for the entire round. if I have multiple IP, then I'm only on FD for the current IP.
2) I go on FD, and If I have IP then I'm on FD for the current IP and that's it. So if someone has Multiple IPs, he just has to shoot me twice and my second IP I'm basically dead. His 12 dice, vs my 4 or 5 tops.

that's really.. fucked up.

You go to FD then your on FD still your next IP.
So if you have 1IP and you go on FD your own FD untill the next round.
If you have more then 1 IP and you go on FD, your on FD until your next IP at witch point you can go on FD again.

The FD rules really aren't that compicated.

[KarmaInferno]

If you had like 4 IPs, though, and your opposition was only at 1 to 2 IPs, you could go FD on your first couple of passes and then safely switch to regular actions for the rest of the turn.




-k

[longbowrocks]

ninja'd

Also, I don't think I'm going to find the acronym ItNW in any book. Can someone tell me what it stands for?

[Mäx]

ninja'd

Also, I don't think I'm going to find the acronym ItNW in any book. Can someone tell me what it stands for?

Immunity To Normal Weapons, i actually wrote it open allready in the post below the one you asked this the first time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Ah, thanks. I didn't draw the connection then, but now: I see what you did there.

[Falconer]

The only reason for that 2nd sentence is simply to allow someone chooses to take aim for a few rounds... they don't lose the bonus if they suddenly decide to do a called shot when they pull the trigger.


As far as the other comment on SnS. I strongly disagree... there's no reason for holdouts to go from 3damage to 6 half... and a big slow round like a shotgun should have a 'stunbunny' round w/ a bigger jolt (shotguns in 4th are generally subpar making up for earlier editions where they were godly). The only other case where it's possible to get higher values are hunting rifles... which generally are subpar anyhow... and sniper rifles/HMG (which all have -3 AP innate!!! so AP half replacing the gun + ammo AP is generally inferior to lethal ammo).

Also, generally I tend to consider SnS useless for penetration purposes... if you're a sniper gunning down someone on the other side a car door or wall, you don't want your round discharging it's shock into the vehicle and not the target.


Another thing to keep in mind... most spirits only do stun damage on physical attacks. (only those w/ a natural weapon or elemental attack type power can hurt a vehicle or drone directly). Another fun one... if the spirit does engage in melee... then with a gun you have the in-melee penalty, but you also get the point-blank bonus... against a spirit ONLY defending against a ranged attack w/ reaction, that -3 penalty is going to do far more harm to a limited reaction pool than a larger attack pool.

[Yerameyahu]

You have to have a GM who's using a house rule for that 'SnS doesn't go through things' idea, Falconer. RAW is silent. I don't disagree, but it's one more thing to fix. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You have to have a GM who's using a house rule for that 'SnS doesn't go through things' idea, Falconer. RAW is silent. I don't disagree, but it's one more thing to fix. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, SnS can't go through barriers. Stun Damage and all that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[sabs]

The idea that when you're in melee range you can't use melee defense to defend against ranged attacks is the worlds dumbest thing in the world. A guy with a gun is pretty much fucked if a melee guy gets into close quarters with him. Certainly if he's trained. I know about a dozen ways to take someones' gun from them and point it at their head. And i'm by no stretch of the imagination on part witha 'runner.

[Bigity]

Yes but that's really an attack on your part, not an attempt to dodge a bullet/arrow/whatever.

At least as far as the abstract rules for this role-playing game are concerned.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The idea that when you're in melee range you can't use melee defense to defend against ranged attacks is the worlds dumbest thing in the world. A guy with a gun is pretty much fucked if a melee guy gets into close quarters with him. Certainly if he's trained. I know about a dozen ways to take someones' gun from them and point it at their head. And i'm by no stretch of the imagination on part witha 'runner.

I believe that there are options that would allow this, though, in the books.

[Yerameyahu]

Tymeaus, that's not really true. The damaging barrier rules don't ask about that, and neither do the cover/armor rules for shooting passengers.

[sabs]

Well, Barriers don't take stun damage. So, you could shoot sns at a barrier all you want, and it would never go through it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, Barriers don't take stun damage. So, you could shoot sns at a barrier all you want, and it would never go through it.

Which was my Point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)