[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't know, from what i have seen it's pretty common on characters that are actually ment to be played, instead of being a dicepool exercise.

I will admit that I have not caught all of the character exercises, so I might have missed ones that are actual, playable characters. It remains, though, that I have no problems with characters whose story matches their stats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Outrunning a Commando is not the issue. Running for 3 hours is. Can you still do that? Can you do that with a 60+ pound combat Load? I know that I cannot, but then, I never could do that comfortably.

I think the question is purely whether you can or can't. No one but a masochist can run for 3 hours with a 60+ pound combat load comfortably, and that's only due to their definition of comfort.

[TheOOB]

How arrogant. First, I do not assume that we are immediately talking about an optimized Magician when a Magicial character is mentioned. I assume that we are talking about an individual who has an actual place in the game world. The fact that the AVERAGE magician (across the board) has a Magical Attribute of 3 apparently makes no difference to you.

Shadowrunners are not average, next point.

Secondly, why, exactly, does a Magic 2 character have no place in a thread talking about House Rules for Combat Spells? And Why does he have no place in a Shadowrunning Team? The first is extremely relevant to prove that Direct Damage Spells are NOT overpowered in the least. It is simply a perception that does not bear up. The second is so subjective that I am amazed that you even brought it up. The FACT that is occurs in games I play in refutes completely your assumption. And in fact, the Magic 2 Character is far more valuable of a character due to the sheer versatility that he brings over the Combat Spells that the others bring. If he wants to cause Damage, He is going to use a Weapon, not spells.

Because unoptimized don't break the game system. Optimized characters are the ones who test out game balance. If your magic 2 mage being over powered in your team, that's their problem, not the game rules.

Furthermore, don't put words into my mouth. I allready explained why a magic 2 magician should be cautiously allowed on a team at best, but I never said they should never be allowed, just that a GM has the right to ban them should they believe it would be disruptive, for one reason or another.

If your magic 5 character is far more valuable than a magic 5 character, either the rest of your parties characters suck, or you're playing a twink build just using the absurdly cheap magician positive quality to give you a boost without making the sacrifices a magician character is supposed to make for their power.

Wrong. No Assumptions are, or should be, made. When we create a team, we talk about what we want to do. then we do it. The team knows exactly what they will be getting. The Magic 2 character IS a strong magician. Just not an overly optimized monstrosity that has no real place in the world. Magic 2 can reliably do everything that you indicated above. It takes some planning and forethought, but it can be done. If you think that it cannot, then you do not put enough thought into your characters. Let me ask you thins. If you were playing a Mage with a Low Magic, whether he started out that way, or ended up on the path to Burnout, what would you do to make yourself useful? That is the connundrum of the Low MAgic MAge. It is not all that hard to solve, actually, but it is something that takes some thought. Subtlety is your friend when you have a Low Magic Rating. You will never pull of the flashy magic that the High magic Combat Mages do, and that is okay. Want a combat mage that will let everyone know where he is, get that Magic 6 Mage. Want a Mage that is forced to be innovative because his Magic Rating is a little lower? Well, there are plenty of them out there. There are FAR more mages with a Magic Attribute of 2-3 than there are with a Magic of 5-6. The Magic 2 character will be force to find alternatives to directly attacking something, and you know what? It works. The Magic 2 character will likely not leave carnage in his wake. And you know what? That is good. A MAgic 2 character is definitely filling the role of a Mage, as it was meant to be filled. Just not at a world shaking power level, as you claim all of your mages are. Not everyone can be a Mage with a 5 or 6 in MAgic Attribute.

Funny, I never mentioned your group, and honestly this entire paragraph is borderline irrelevant. I understand how to make strong magician characters with a low magic rating, it's not hard, but those characters are not good because they are magicians, but because they have mundane skills, also they have some tricks they barely paid for. I don't know what your obsession with "average" characters, but I assure you most people who post in threads about game rules and optimization are not talking about an average mage, they are talking about serious magician who hs focused heavily on their magical abilities. Also, you seem to think for some reason the only reason to have a high magic is combat spells. The last combat mage I played used his stunbolt spell once every 3 or 4 sessions, and he was a grade 2 initiate with a 6 magic. When I needed someone dead, I shot them...or summoned a fire spirit.

Your argument about Spirits is even weaker. You can take out a Force 6 Spirit with Small Arms quite easily, so whjy is a Force 2-3 Spirit a problem?

Getting past 12 hardened armor isn't easy, it either takes heavy guns, special ammo, or special forces level skill. Shadowrunners often have this, Lone Star and rent a cops usually don't, at least not before reinforcements arrive. A Colt America, on the other hand, gets through a force 2's armor easy using normal rounds, two shots and the thing is gone, even from a gangbanger with 3 agility and 2 pistols. I'm sorry, but if you think I have a weak argument saying that low force spirits are not strong in combat when compared to high force spirits, you need to take a math class.

You really do not get Magic if you believe that anything under Magic attrribute of 5 is useless.
As for Underpowered. The character I play has MORE options than any other character in the game, for solving problems. So, he cannot incinerate a Tank where it stands with a simple wave of his hands. Big deal. Can that Combat mage be Subtle? I have yet to see it. The biggest problem with Magic that I can see is that when you play a High Magic Attribute Mage, you want to use that High Magic Attribute. They choose the big spells, Why? So they can solve everything with Big Explosions, and Big Effects. The argument that any Background Count shuts down a Low Magic MAge is false, it just forces them to compensate in some other way. Can a High Magic Mage do the same? Of course he can, but that is not the point.

Once again, you are putting words in my mouth. Lookup a strawman argument on Wikipedia, I'll wait.

You done?

I never said magic less than 5 is useless, I did however say that a character who is a magician character is going to be someone who's primary contributing factor to their team is their magical abilities. A mage 2 mage has some cool useful tricks, but a strong character magic 2 does not make. Your character is then relying on their mundane skills to fulfill their party roles, which means they are not a magician archtype, they are a guy who is good with a gun, who can also cast spells. A high magic doesn't just make your combat spells better, I have mentioned time and time again, even in this thread, magic SUCKS at killing people, even with a high magic score. Guns are more effective, cheaper, less likely to draw attention, and don't cause damage to you when you use them. However a force 5 air spirit providing concealment, or a force 5 trid phantasm spell, that kinda stuff is useful.

[phlapjack77]

I never said magic less than 5 is useless, I did however say that a character who is a magician character is going to be someone who's primary contributing factor to their team is their magical abilities. A mage 2 mage has some cool useful tricks, but a strong character magic 2 does not make. Your character is then relying on their mundane skills to fulfill their party roles, which means they are not a magician archtype, they are a guy who is good with a gun, who can also cast spells. A high magic doesn't just make your combat spells better, I have mentioned time and time again, even in this thread, magic SUCKS at killing people, even with a high magic score. Guns are more effective, cheaper, less likely to draw attention, and don't cause damage to you when you use them. However a force 5 air spirit providing concealment, or a force 5 trid phantasm spell, that kinda stuff is useful.

I think this is the problem here - you're trying to apply "classes" to SR. "I'm the mage! Ok, I'm the fighter!" A magic 2 char won't be as powerful as a magic 5 char in magic, but so what? That magic 2 char will have put points into other areas, and will be better than the magic 5 char in those other areas. So what if they're not a better "mage"? There are no "mages" in SR, just like there aren't any "fighters", "clerics", "thieves", etc. This isn't WOW.

[phlapjack77]

Your argument about Spirits is even weaker. You can take out a Force 6 Spirit with Small Arms quite easily, so whjy is a Force 2-3 Spirit a problem?

Doesn't your group have special rules for spirits above force 4, because you think anything above force 4 is too powerful? Your argument here seems a little disingenuous...

[sabs]

How exactly are you doing 13 DV with a pistol easily?

[Yerameyahu]

Maybe it's a Super Warhawk with APDS and expert skill. I wouldn't call that 'quite easily', I'd call it 'in some cases'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

yeah, but that Spirit has 12 dodge dice.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, 'expert'. And naturally it's all customized to fire 8-round bursts or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

How exactly are you doing 13 DV with a pistol easily?

Why do you need to do 13 DV with a pistol.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, that's a stupid question in general. Why *wouldn't* you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But specifically, they're talking about killing a Force 6 spirit with a pistol 'quite easily'.

[longbowrocks]

How exactly are you doing 13 DV with a pistol easily?

Well, use of edge will bring your effective hit rate up to a little over 50%, so only 14 dice on a DV 6 pistol should net you an expected value of 6 DV + 7 hits = 13 DV

[Falconer]

As far as doing 13 damage w/ a pistol in a single combat round... easy. I take two of the BF pistols in arsenal (narrow burst). Each one does 7P-1 (-5 w/ APDS), in order to hit I need one net hit... 8 damage (no drain on that extra hit!), there now target is soaking at least 8P damage twice (single action per shot... w/ option to 'multi-cast' by firing both pistols at once and splitting pool). Alternatively... core book... 2 revolvers... 6P ap-2 each base... again apds... that's min 7P damage each.

If you're managing more than 1 net hit you should be in the 16-18 damage range... after soak you shoul be down about 12-14 w/ all that armor penetration. (body 4 w/ an armor jacket say).

And i suggest you come up with pretty much any other possible house rule or use one of those provided in this topic or the previous ones.
Because that rule is really really bad and doesn't really do anything else then encourage the mage to either overcast or multicast(or both) every direct combat spell she uses.

I suggest you look up some of my prior posts. There's a world of difference between trying to fix something and nerf it into oblivion as most of the anti-mage crowd are out to do to direct combat spells.

And no, there isn't a problem w/ overcasting or multi-casting. In either case the drain is increased by a substantial amount... (the trick is pushing them into and over the 3-4 drain mark... because that's when normal sized soak pools become unreliable). In order to reliably knock someone out w/ the extra drain for success rule, you need to multi-cast 2 spells at the same guy at force 7... w/ half give or take of the original pool (remember penalties get doubled and applied each pool separately.) If overcast at fore 11... (enough generally for a knockout... you're soaking 4 drain on a stunbolt.. more for other spells... and two force 7's are going to hammer you with two 3 drain tests (each aditional spell adds +1 drain to all spells).



As far as overcasting... you'll find I've long advocated an extra half point of drain for each point by which a spell is overcast. (mathematically the same but easier to figure on the fly. equivalent to 1 drain for each point by which a spell is overcast).

You'll also find I advocate being more likely to use edge when oversummoning, and also to only give spirits ranks in skills equal to half force instead of force. I also like the idea of using 'banishing' as counterspelling against critter powers.

[longbowrocks]

Why does everyone have so much difficulty with mages? Just do what we've always done. Get the village together and burn it at the stake.

Non-witches should be safe from burning since they aren't made of wood.

If they try to counter by turning you into a newt... Don't worry, you'll get better.

[Mäx]

Well, that's a stupid question in general. Why *wouldn't* you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But specifically, they're talking about killing a Force 6 spirit with a pistol 'quite easily'.

For that you just load you pistol with S&S, as long as you hit you do damage to that spirit.

I suggest you look up some of my prior posts. There's a world of difference between trying to fix something and nerf it into oblivion as most of the anti-mage crowd are out to do to direct combat spells.

If you did the same about my posts on these topics, you would notice that i'm not in any way part of the anti-mage crowd your talking about, i just happen to agree with the fact that if direct combat spells need a nerf, then almost any other house rule would be better then that optional rule.(my first try would be to just swap around the drain modifiers of indirect and direct spells)

[TheOOB]

I have been known to make it so when overcasting if you resist all the drain you still take 1 stun damage, as a kinda way of ensuring you always take something for overcasting.

[Yerameyahu]

Falconer, narrow bursts don't beat ITNW. That's the whole point. They're talking about spirits. 13 DV is more than 8 DV + 8 DV.

Mäx, SnS goes without saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Falconer]

You obviously missed the APDS and AP-5 on the attack. The narrow burst heavy pistol is good enough for a force 5 w/ one net hit. For higher forces you'd want to mod the gun to be able to do wide bursts. (less reaction means more damage to compare against hardened totals). But you'd need 3 net hits or a called shot for damage. (if you can reliably generate 3 net hits... then the narrow is still better for damage as it's +2 assured damage... though wide is still better for 'insurance').

The revolvers can punch through a force 6 using APDS w/ just one net hit, base damage 6, ap -6... +1 net hit...

So no, my math is perfectly valid.



SnS is another broken item... I liked the house rule which just makes it match the damage code of the base pistol... (IE: light pistol SnS... 4S half... so bigger rounds carry a bigger shock).

[Dakka Dakka]

The revolvers can punch through a force 6 using APDS w/ just one net hit, base damage 6, ap -6... +1 net hit...

Only the Super Warhawk, not all revolvers. Add in the (weird) Hi-Power Rounds from WAR and you have a truely scary handcannon.

SnS is another broken item... I liked the house rule which just makes it match the damage code of the base pistol... (IE: light pistol SnS... 4S half... so bigger rounds carry a bigger shock).

Only if you restrict it at the upper end as well. SnS form a Barret with this houserule would be ridiculously powerful.

[TheOOB]

You obviously missed the APDS and AP-5 on the attack. The narrow burst heavy pistol is good enough for a force 5 w/ one net hit. For higher forces you'd want to mod the gun to be able to do wide bursts. (less reaction means more damage to compare against hardened totals). But you'd need 3 net hits or a called shot for damage. (if you can reliably generate 3 net hits... then the narrow is still better for damage as it's +2 assured damage... though wide is still better for 'insurance').

The revolvers can punch through a force 6 using APDS w/ just one net hit, base damage 6, ap -6... +1 net hit...

So no, my math is perfectly valid.



SnS is another broken item... I liked the house rule which just makes it match the damage code of the base pistol... (IE: light pistol SnS... 4S half... so bigger rounds carry a bigger shock).

Burst fire doesn't help overcome armor, so it's not strictly neccesary. Stick and Shock rounds are cheaper and have a lower availability, unlikely your average goon will have them, but good for runners to carry around.

[Mäx]

Only if you restrict it at the upper end as well. SnS form a Barret with this houserule would be ridiculously powerful.

This exactly is the reason why i have never understood people who advocate the "S&S has the same damage code as the base weapon" house rule as a fix to S&S, becouse IMO that rule actually makes S&S totally and absolutely broken and the best ammo choice for every weapon in every situation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Getting past 12 hardened armor isn't easy, it either takes heavy guns, special ammo, or special forces level skill. Shadowrunners often have this, Lone Star and rent a cops usually don't, at least not before reinforcements arrive. A Colt America, on the other hand, gets through a force 2's armor easy using normal rounds, two shots and the thing is gone, even from a gangbanger with 3 agility and 2 pistols. I'm sorry, but if you think I have a weak argument saying that low force spirits are not strong in combat when compared to high force spirits, you need to take a math class.

SNS Ammo is cheap and easily available, Force 6 Spirits fall like Flies, according to DUmpshockers... You done?

I never said magic less than 5 is useless, I did however say that a character who is a magician character is going to be someone who's primary contributing factor to their team is their magical abilities. A mage 2 mage has some cool useful tricks, but a strong character magic 2 does not make. Your character is then relying on their mundane skills to fulfill their party roles, which means they are not a magician archtype, they are a guy who is good with a gun, who can also cast spells. A high magic doesn't just make your combat spells better, I have mentioned time and time again, even in this thread, magic SUCKS at killing people, even with a high magic score. Guns are more effective, cheaper, less likely to draw attention, and don't cause damage to you when you use them. However a force 5 air spirit providing concealment, or a force 5 trid phantasm spell, that kinda stuff is useful.

You DID say that it was breaking the spirit, if not the Letter, of the Quality to have a Low Magic Attribute Magician. At which point, that equates to Useless. WHo cares how the Low Magic Character does what they do, they are still useful to the team. Your argumanet that their magic is not what allows them to carry the day is quite laughable. Seems to work for my character quite well. No one said that High Magic Mages (and the things they can bring to bear) were not useful, you said that Low Magic Mages were not. After all, A Magic Attribut of 2 still allows for Force 4 Spells when necessary.

Anyways...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Doesn't your group have special rules for spirits above force 4, because you think anything above force 4 is too powerful? Your argument here seems a little disingenuous...

No, no special rules. The Spirits spend Edge. It is a Canon Rule. Applied at a certain threshold (Force 4) unless the player's character takes effort to appease the spirits.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, that's a stupid question in general. Why *wouldn't* you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But specifically, they're talking about killing a Force 6 spirit with a pistol 'quite easily'.

Use SnS (I know it has already been stated)... Quite Easy (This was the point I was making). There are a lot of Topics here on DS that complain about that very thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[phlapjack77]

No, no special rules. The Spirits spend Edge. It is a Canon Rule. Applied at a certain threshold (Force 4) unless the player's character takes effort to appease the spirits.

Forgive me for implying that you or your group would use a house rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I meant to say, that your group considers anything force 4 and above really powerful, so powerful that certain rules get applied to them and not to lower force spirits. And then to see you argue that force 6 spirits are easily taken out by small arms fire, well, seemed as I said, disingenuous. I'm objecting to this mostly because I agree with your point of view in this thread.