Qabbala Tradition, Or, Krav Maga is cool, but why are Jews overpowered? Options

[Glyph]

The only thing that really makes possession overpowered is that it breaks the usual rule of being unable to attack physical targets from astral space. A mage who summons a spirit to possess an enemy not only gains an ally, but takes out that enemy, for the fight. That's the part I would house rule, if I ever ran a game with possession traditions. Maybe something like unwilling victims have to be prepared vessels, or at least rendered helpless first. Possession should not be that easy.

[Yerameyahu]

That does sound ridiculous. … Ah, I see: it's Force*2 vs. Int+Will, and the only penalty for the spirit failing is a wasted Complex Action.

[LurkerOutThere]

The only thing that really makes possession overpowered is that it breaks the usual rule of being unable to attack physical targets from astral space. A mage who summons a spirit to possess an enemy not only gains an ally, but takes out that enemy, for the fight. That's the part I would house rule, if I ever ran a game with possession traditions. Maybe something like unwilling victims have to be prepared vessels, or at least rendered helpless first. Possession should not be that easy.

this seems reasonable.

[Fortinbras]

I once asked my GM if I could build a fully automatic grenade launcher. He said "Sure. Everyone you fight will have three."
As the current GM of the game, I like to keep this in mind when someone wants to try something overpowered. I remind the group of this fact, and I let the group some to a consensus for president involving something like this. It's usually quite reasonable.

[longbowrocks]

I once asked my GM if I could build a fully automatic grenade launcher. He said "Sure. Everyone you fight will have three."
As the current GM of the game, I like to keep this in mind when someone wants to try something overpowered. I remind the group of this fact, and I let the group some to a consensus for president involving something like this. It's usually quite reasonable.

Instead you should plough ahead with your plan and buy "immunity:grenades". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Also, no need to build one. Look up "ITS Gonryu". I think it's in WAR!

[Glyph]

I once asked my GM if I could build a fully automatic grenade launcher. He said "Sure. Everyone you fight will have three."
As the current GM of the game, I like to keep this in mind when someone wants to try something overpowered. I remind the group of this fact, and I let the group some to a consensus for president involving something like this. It's usually quite reasonable.

Eh, I dunno. I agree that anything the PCs have, the NPCs can have, but not every NPC. If the sammie has an Ares Alpha, then those spec ops teams might have them too, but not the local gang or the mall security guard. I would rather disallow something than break the verisimilitude of the game world just to escalate things up to the level of one PC's overpowered option. I think a better option would be to give the group harder runs, rather than make the entire world get tougher in lockstep with them.

[Fortinbras]

Instead you should plough ahead with your plan and buy "immunity:grenades". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Also, no need to build one. Look up "ITS Gonryu". I think it's in WAR!

Again, anything you have, the bad guys have three.
"I'm immune to grenades! Ha, ha. No one's ever thought of that before... what do you mean my grenades do no damage?"

Eh, I dunno. I agree that anything the PCs have, the NPCs can have, but not every NPC. If the sammie has an Ares Alpha, then those spec ops teams might have them too, but not the local gang or the mall security guard. I would rather disallow something than break the verisimilitude of the game world just to escalate things up to the level of one PC's overpowered option. I think a better option would be to give the group harder runs, rather than make the entire world get tougher in lockstep with them.

It's not that everyone in the world has them, but everyone in the world the PC's deal with. It's that escalation thing they talk about at the end of Batman. As you go up in pay scale, so does your opposition, and if you've discovered a thing, you'd better believe anyone you have to take on whose nuyen is worth your time has discovered that thing too.
Much like whenever one of my players manages to actually read one of the books and thinks she's discovered a cool loophole no one has thought of before, it's something I've discovered a year ago and something that has been discussed ad nausea on Dumpshock for years longer. Subsequesntly, to imagine no one else in the Sixth World has thought of it simply because it's not in the BBB isn't practical.

Besides, I rarely have to carry out the threat of such a proposition, as the players are usually quick to thwart it themselves:
Player 1: "So, if I'm a Possession mage, the only defense bad guys get is a Force x 2 v. Will + Int. Sweet!"
Me: "Yep. Group, do we agree that whenever you meet a Possession mage I get to control your character if I roll higher on Force x 2 v. Will + Int?"
Group: "Wait! There has to be a optional rule! Let's talk about this!"

[Irion]

I think it should still be possible for a spirit to posses a unprepared host. But it should be a hard task.
Just give it a -5 dice pool modifier for unprepeard vessels. So a Force 5 Spirit will have a hard time getting this net hit.
But at least keep it an option for Free Spirits. The evil over spirit taking hold of one of the hereos is just "classic".
(Or make it like the mind control spell. Every Force rounds, the host gets to roll willpower to reduce the hits of the spirit.)

(Spirits should also spend edge if summoned or bound. Edge of spirits should be halved.)

[Ranarion]

Tweaking the Rules :
Alternative Possession Mechanics
If the gaming group considers the basic
Possession rules too powerful or unbalanced with
their play-style, Possession may be adjusted by
implementing any or all of the following changes:
• Modify the Possession Test for inanimate vessels/
objects to Force x 2 (Object Resistance x 2).
• Allow Bound spirits to only possess vessels that
are present at the time of their binding. This
limits use of Possession as an attack power to
Summoned spirits.
• Rule that a conjurer may only command a spirit
to possess a vessel which is within the conjurer’s
line of sight at the time.
• Rule that Possessed living vessels may actively
resist possession in a manner similar to a Mental
Manipulation spell (p. 202, SR4). Every (Force)
Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex
Action to shake off the spirit’s control. The victim
rolls a Willpower (+ Banishing) Test; each
hit reduces the net hits on the spirit’s original
Possession Test. If the possessing spirit’s net
hits are reduced to 0, the spirit is expelled from
the target.

[Mesh]

LOL, love the title. Jews have always been overpowered. History proves this time and time again.

Mesh

PS, there's no negative connotation associated with "Jews" as opposed to "Jewish people" despite the work of the nazis. We are Jews.

[pbangarth]

That does sound ridiculous. … Ah, I see: it's Force*2 vs. Int+Will, and the only penalty for the spirit failing is a wasted Complex Action.

And the spirit can't try again on that vessel for a day.

The suggestion seems to be that the possession attempt is likely to succeed. But remember that a Force 3 spirit has roughly a 50% chance to succeed against an ordinary living metahuman vessel. so, half the time the possession attempt is a wasted effort. If you are talking about higher Force spirits, it doesn't matter whether they are Possession or Materialization tradition... they are bad-ass opponents.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, I didn't see that. Still, they can try once per person in the opposing force; odds are good they'll neutralize one and 'replace' him with a stronger-than-normal spirit enemy. Hmm. It's a pretty good trick, despite the risk.

[pbangarth]

Yes, I agree the possession spirit can keep trying other NPCs. Meanwhile, though, the materialized spirit is Fearing/Confusing/Engulfing/...ing.

I have always maintained that possession traditions are not particularly more powerful than materialization traditions, and that magic in general is overpowered only if the GM (or the player) doesn't enforce the built-in checks and balances that keep magic under control.

I think I'm in the minority on that point, though.

[phlapjack77]

Yes, I agree the possession spirit can keep trying other NPCs. Meanwhile, though, the materialized spirit is Fearing/Confusing/Engulfing/...ing.

I have always maintained that possession traditions are not particularly more powerful than materialization traditions, and that magic in general is overpowered only if the GM (or the player) doesn't enforce the built-in checks and balances that keep magic under control.

I think I'm in the minority on that point, though.

you are not alone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alien.gif)

[Glyph]

It's not that everyone in the world has them, but everyone in the world the PC's deal with. It's that escalation thing they talk about at the end of Batman. As you go up in pay scale, so does your opposition, and if you've discovered a thing, you'd better believe anyone you have to take on whose nuyen is worth your time has discovered that thing too.
Much like whenever one of my players manages to actually read one of the books and thinks she's discovered a cool loophole no one has thought of before, it's something I've discovered a year ago and something that has been discussed ad nausea on Dumpshock for years longer. Subsequesntly, to imagine no one else in the Sixth World has thought of it simply because it's not in the BBB isn't practical.

Besides, I rarely have to carry out the threat of such a proposition, as the players are usually quick to thwart it themselves:
Player 1: "So, if I'm a Possession mage, the only defense bad guys get is a Force x 2 v. Will + Int. Sweet!"
Me: "Yep. Group, do we agree that whenever you meet a Possession mage I get to control your character if I roll higher on Force x 2 v. Will + Int?"
Group: "Wait! There has to be a optional rule! Let's talk about this!"

For out-and-out loopholes, that's probably a good way to deal with it. Any shoddy exploit that the PCs use, the NPCs can use on them. General skills and gear, though, I would give to NPCs that logically would have it, whether the PCs do the same or not.

[CanRay]

I often quote Dr. Egon Spengler on the issue of rules: "The door swings both ways."

[Whipstitch]

For out-and-out loopholes, that's probably a good way to deal with it. Any shoddy exploit that the PCs use, the NPCs can use on them. General skills and gear, though, I would give to NPCs that logically would have it, whether the PCs do the same or not.

Yeah, this is how I feel about it. Even in comic book escalation scenarios the mooks by and large remain mooks. For example, in the Punisher and Batman films escalation took the form of hired Prime Runner types like the Russian and Joker. Beyond that the "typical" bad guys simply couldn't gin up any way to push back harder. At least not within their at hand resources and current skill sets, anyway.

[Udoshi]

In one of my groups games, we had the option to hire an NPC-mage or two to replace our mage temporarily, who was going to get some long-term ware/essence revitalization done.

One of the options was a pair of voodoo sisters. Thematically, one was a regular voodoo tradition mage, and the other was just a normal pnon-awakened person who was trained to help out, and work as a willing living vessel for possession by the voodoun. They came as a pair, and it kind of avoided the whole freebie 'turn an enemy into an ally' thing - they were both fun to have around, and one would just occasionally get freaky/creepy and be able to shrug off bullets with their bare skin.

It was kind of a neat twist; fixing some of the problems with possession being powerful with fluff and thematics. Kinda wish that game was still going.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

you are not alone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alien.gif)

Definitely not alone... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)