The Way of the Adept released, PDF only; 15 pages, $4.95 Options

[Fringe]

Improved Physical Attribute is 0.75 per level as well (at least as of SR4A). Also, whether the new powers are discounted or not, I believe they don't show up on any Way's list of discountable powers... so you end up paying whatever it says.

That's because each of the new powers is restricted to a particular Way. So one could argue that it's already discounted, or maybe it represents some advanced power of the Way, or whatever.

[Bira]

Another question for people who know these things better than I:

Lets say there is a Social Adept who takes the Speaker's Way quality. In the list of discountable powers, it says "Improved Ability (Social skills)". Would this be a single choice (and discount all improved ability powers taken for social skills), or would the adept have to select that choice once for each social skill he wants discounted (with each one being 0.5 to 0.75 PP on its own)?

I believe the first option is the correct one.

One thing I don't really like about the way the discount mechanic works is that it becomes more or less useful depending on which powers you're selecting. If you're an adept with 3 expensive powers (like a lot of combat adepts), it might give you as many as 2 extra BP out of the deal, which is awesome. If you've got a whole lot of powers that cost 1 or less, you will be getting significantly less bang for your buck - even though you spent the same BP for the benefit and may be adhering to your Way's list of acceptable powers just as strictly.

As long as you spend the same amount of points in the end, you're getting exactly the same benefit. Choosing to discount powers you don't intend to spend a lot on is a bad bargain, but it's not the system's fault (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Makki]

As long as you spend the same amount of points in the end, you're getting exactly the same benefit. Choosing to discount powers you don't intend to spend a lot on is a bad bargain, but it's not the system's fault (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

You're so wrong. I explained it earlier: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1065413
a Warrior (and Artisan) can discount his Imp Reflex III to save one full powerpoint (cost reduced from 4 to 3), no one else can even slightly get so much in return. The best thing an Athlete for example can do, is get Pain Resistance 6 for 6*0.5*0.75=2.25 instead of 3 points cost

[Stahlseele]

Isn't it usually assumed that you add the percentages up before substrating them from the total?
So not 100%-25% and then 75(now the new 100%)-25%=56,25% left but 100%-50%?

[Fyndhal]

Isn't it usually assumed that you add the percentages up before substrating them from the total?
So not 100%-25% and then 75(now the new 100%)-25%=56,25% left but 100%-50%?

I'd rule that the "Way Bonus" is, effectively, a specialized version of Geas and not allow them to stack. Same with the Biocompatbility from Burnout and from Edges -- they should not stack. I'm not sure if that's RAW, since I didn't see anything about it specifically in the PDF.

[Stahlseele]

It's less "perfect" math but easier and makes easy numbers

[Bira]

You're so wrong. I explained it earlier: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1065413
a Warrior (and Artisan) can discount his Imp Reflex III to save one full powerpoint (cost reduced from 4 to 3), no one else can even slightly get so much in return. The best thing an Athlete for example can do, is get Pain Resistance 6 for 6*0.5*0.75=2.25 instead of 3 points cost

But your two examples have you spending different amounts of points in each case, don't they? Adept A gets a 4-point power and pays 3. Adept B got a 3-point power and paid 2.25. If he had gotten a 3 point power and another 1-point power, he'd save the same amount, paying 3 on the lot. Proportionally, they saved exactly the same amount - 25%. If they spend the same, they'd have "saved" exactly the same amount. It's how percentages work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Also, don't look at the powers in isolation. I figure any adept whose player bothers to pay for this supplement is going to have enough Magic to get a discount on multiple powers. Mr. Athlete is bound to be able to sink the same amount of points in his favored powers as the others can sink into theirs (and why would an Artisan need increased reflexes for, anyway?).

[Makki]

But your two examples have you spending different amounts of points in each case, don't they? Adept A gets a 4-point power and pays 3. Adept B got a 3-point power and paid 2.25. If he had gotten a 3 point power and another 1-point power, he'd save the same amount, paying 3 on the lot. And that's my point: as long as you spend the same, you "save" the same. It's how percentages work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Also, don't look at the powers in isolation. I figure any adept whose player bothers to pay for this supplement is going to have enough Magic to get a discount on multiple powers. Mr. Athlete is bound to be able to sink the same amount of points in his favored powers as the others can sink into theirs (and why would an Artisan need increased reflexes for, anyway?).

we have to "look at the powers in isolation" as there is a realistic cap of 3 discountable powers in total as Magic 8 is not really worth discussing here. Although 2 is more reasonable, as many adepts start with Magic 5. SO while the percentage is ofc the same, no one is interested in it. What you want is a good absolute discount.

example:
A Warrior with Magic 5 can get ImpReflex3 and Combat Sense 5 for 4.875 instead of the original cost 6.5. That's 1.625 powerpoints saved.
My Invisible One, can only discount Traceless Walk and Improved Ability Infiltration 3 for a total saving of 0.4325 powerpoints.
If both increase their Magic to 6, the Warrior can increase Combat Sense to 6 and get Killing Hands for another 0.25 points saved and a total of 1.875. While my Invisible One can get and discount Rush and Great Leap 1, for a new total saving of 0.6825


Artisan includes Driver-Adepts, they need imp refl for Meatpiloting.

[Fringe]

we have to "look at the powers in isolation" as there is a realistic cap of 3 discountable powers in total as Magic 8 is not really worth discussing here. Although 2 is more reasonable, as many adepts start with Magic 5. SO while the percentage is ofc the same, no one is interested in it. What you want is a good absolute discount.

example:
A Warrior with Magic 5 can get ImpReflex3 and Combat Sense 5 for 4.875 instead of the original cost 6.5. That's 1.625 powerpoints saved.
My Invisible One, can only discount Traceless Walk and Improved Ability Infiltration 3 for a total saving of 0.4325 powerpoints.
If both increase their Magic to 6, the Warrior can increase Combat Sense to 6 and get Killing Hands for another 0.25 points saved and a total of 1.875. While my Invisible One can get and discount Rush and Great Leap 1, for a new total saving of 0.6825

It is hard to compare the point discount for the Warrior's Way with that of any other Way, since no other Way can spend so many Magic points in so few powers. For example, Improved Reflexes costs 1.5/2.5/4 points, and no other power matches that cost for so few levels. Improved Ability is .5/level for combat skills (Warrior's Way) and .25/level for anything else. Remember also, "The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute" (SR4A, p. 195), so it's hard for any other Way to stack up the points in a single power to get the same savings that the Warrior's Way does.

A Warrior with 4 Magic can conceivably start with 5.25 Magic worth of powers (there's no .33-cost power) or, as your example gives, a Warrior with 5 Magic can start with 6.5 Magic worth of powers.
Most other Ways with 4 Magic can start with 4.5 Magic worth of powers (two level-4 powers at .25/level, discounted to .75 each), or with 5 Magic can start with 5.625 Magic worth of powers (two level-5 powers at .25/level).

It's interesting that of all the Ways, only the Totem's Way has a different BP cost (15 instead of 10). I wonder if they meant to make Warrior's Way cost 15 BP as well...and perhaps they should. Or instead of the discount, raise the maximum level allowed for list powers normally capped at (Magic) to (Magic x 1.25), but give less or no discount.

I'm also surprised they left Improved Physical Attribute (Agility) off of the Invisible Way's list, since so many of its relevant skills are Agility-based. I can see the point of trying to make lists unique, but IPA (Reaction) is on the Artisan's list, and IPA (any) is on the Athlete's list.

[longbowrocks]

I guess the discounts are pretty good. An adept with 6 magic can get up to 7.75 power points out of it, as long as he only spends 0.75 PP outside his way.

Then again, that's only .75 PP you can spend outside your way if you want to maximize the benefit.

[redwulf25]

I haven't been able to get the book yet, can someone fill me in on what, in general at least, is "the Totems way"? Is that another term for "The Shamanic Way" from Street Magic?

[Fringe]

I haven't been able to get the book yet, can someone fill me in on what, in general at least, is "the Totems way"? Is that another term for "The Shamanic Way" from Street Magic?

That seems to be the case, as far as I can tell.

[BlackHat]

I guess the discounts are pretty good. An adept with 6 magic can get up to 7.75 power points out of it, as long as he only spends 0.75 PP outside his way.

Then again, that's only .75 PP you can spend outside your way if you want to maximize the benefit.

Wouldn't the maximum benefit be squeezing all 6 PP into 3 powers from your way and getting 8 PP's worth out of it?
8.0 * 0.75 = 6.0

[longbowrocks]

That's the limit as you buy smaller and smaller increments (down to 1/infinity). I guess since you don't quite need the full 0.25 PP for abilities in your way that would generally cost 0.25, you might be able to squeeze a tad more out. But 8.0 shouldn't be possible.

edit* Ah, nevermind. I was thinking of it as getting bonus points, but since it's a discount from the start, I guess you really can do that.

[Sephiroth]

I'm a little disappointed that the adept powers from Digital Grimoire weren't given any mention. Power Swimming in particular would go so very well with the Athlete's Way.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm a little disappointed that the adept powers from Digital Grimoire weren't given any mention. Power Swimming in particular would go so very well with the Athlete's Way.

If you were a Swimmer, Maybe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But what about a Pole Vaulter?
Or a Baseball Player?
Or a Boxer (Probably a Warrior's Way Adept though)?
Oh, or how about a Speed Skater like Apollo Ono?

Not quite so useful for them...

[jakephillips]

I think the real question is how long are you going to play your campaign? In a long term 50+session game 1 year every week or 2 years every other week. Adepts surpass Sams because of the increased top side of their powers. I have a magic 9 adept in my game who had to buy his magic up from 6 and he is the only guy in my game with 4 passes + combat sense + elf reaction of 9 or 10 and combat skills for shooting and stabbing at 16+ dice. Very dangerous and much easier to get through security with masking with all that power. At the jump adepts are in an overall sense underpowered as a generalists but can outshine Sams in their speciality but in the LOOOOONG game they are more powerful. I think the adepts way just adds some early bang for the buck.

[Makki]

How dose Confidence Man work on ally PCs? giving them an additional hit? adding 3 or 4 dice?

[Critias]

How dose Confidence Man work on ally PCs? giving them an additional hit? adding 3 or 4 dice?

It moves them one spot better on the Buying Hits table (core book, p. 62), essentially given them one "extra" hit.

[Saint Sithney]

But honestly, that one strikes me as too unhinged to be an optional rule.

Adepts still need to take masking and centering to be on top of things. It's not like it's the only choice on initiation.

Besides, remember SR4 where raising magic was the new stat x3 instead of x5? That SR4a change hurt adepts more than any other archetype. That optional rule is the little blue pill that lets an adept get his PPs up. If you want to limit it to only be taken once, it's still better than the alternative of making it part of basically every adepts regular advancement to buy a Synaptic Booster to free up the points used by Increased Reflexes.

[Mäx]

For those powers that raise attributes, both the old ones and the new ones, it says that the cost is doupled after you go over you natural maximum.
If you also get a pice of ware that raises the same attribute, at witch order do those raises take effect, does the power raise the attribute first or the ware.

[longbowrocks]

I think the real question is how long are you going to play your campaign? In a long term 50+session game 1 year every week or 2 years every other week. Adepts surpass Sams because of the increased top side of their powers. I have a magic 9 adept in my game who had to buy his magic up from 6 and he is the only guy in my game with 4 passes + combat sense + elf reaction of 9 or 10 and combat skills for shooting and stabbing at 16+ dice. Very dangerous and much easier to get through security with masking with all that power. At the jump adepts are in an overall sense underpowered as a generalists but can outshine Sams in their speciality but in the LOOOOONG game they are more powerful. I think the adepts way just adds some early bang for the buck.

Did this adept take any 'ware? The only reaction enhancements that stack are reaction enhancer with wired reflexes, so a sammy can get higher reaction, and most likely initiative. The improved attribute power is really expensive even before reaching your natural maximum, and 'ware is going to reduce your magic by 1 point for every 1 or 2 attributes you augment heavily.

Also, I think a sammy can find some way to outshine the adept using that 168 karma the adept spent between magic and initiation.

[Smokeskin]

If you want to limit it to only be taken once, it's still better than the alternative of making it part of basically every adepts regular advancement to buy a Synaptic Booster to free up the points used by Increased Reflexes.

Synaptic Booster is a better choice than Increased Reflexes either way. It is a separate problem that you may or may not wish to deal with.

[Tyro]

Easy fix for the Ways: Remove the "only 3 powers get the discount" BS. Well-rounded adepts should not be penalized, and my social or infiltration adept should not have to take the Warrior's Way to get the best bang for his buck (Imp. Reflexes is EXPENSIVE!).

Also, PP instead of metamagic is not only NOT overpowered, it's frelling NECESSARY for adepts to be viable in a post-Att*5 world.

[Critias]

Easy fix for the Ways: Remove the "only 3 powers get the discount" BS.

Two quick things on that thought: The limitation on the number of powers available was included after getting playtest feedback from my early draft, because many of them felt it was overpowered initially (in other words, for what my opinion's worth, I'm all for removing the discount cap). And second, don't forget Walking the Ways as a means of opening up additional discounts (any powers you want).