Exo-skeleton rules Options

[CanRay]

Yeah, and the simplicity of the construction. It is easy to get to work at an old Ford (meaning you are able to change a lot), but try this with one of the new cars.

Don't get me started.

REALLY don't get me started.

[longbowrocks]

Good, are things you may suggest at your table without waking up in the hospital and having a bunch of surgents discussion how to get the Core Book out of your ass and how it got there in the first place.

Aw shucks. No need to compliment us that much.

[Rasumichin]

Those are actual combat (and/or assassination) robots, though, custom-made for cyborg brainjars. You'd expect an anthroform to be much tougher (and heavier) than a skeleton. The Tomino *is* a small battlemech.

The Ares knockoff is even know as Madcat.

Although i'd say that they should come back when they weigh 20 tons upwards, are operated by their own fusion reactor and can mount main guns if they want to play Mechwarrior with the big boys.

@Rasumichin

Yeah, I hate those two. I have no idea how they got those numbers.
Every drone of this size has a body of 4 or less. This drone is quite fragil and hard to modify, so lets give it a body of 6...

If they had a Body of 3 or 4, people would ask why the fuck they should bother with cyborgs when every normal 400 BP streetsam can take them apart.
Unless they choose a battle tank as their body, but we can't have that as the standard cyborg, as they have to be humanoid in their default form because of genre conventions.

Don't try to make me explain their stats from an ingame perspective that goes beyond "oh, they're experimental combat drones and cost ten times as much as other drones of their class" handwaving.
Walker-type vehicles operate on rule of cool anyway. Giving a vulnerable humanoid shape with easily damaged joints that are already stressed from an exponentially increased mass a higher structural integrity rating than a good, old, reliable, standard-vehicle box shape doesn't have an explanation besides "it's cool, let's just roll with it".

[Yerameyahu]

I'm fine with Body-as-toughness. The problem is just that it's Body-as-toughness-and-size-and-moddibility. :/

[Rasumichin]

I'm fine with Body-as-toughness. The problem is just that it's Body-as-toughness-and-size-and-moddibility. :/

Well, we could introduce completely new and revolutionary concepts such as a Customization Value, add info about vehicle size, number of seats and number of doors, hell, maybe even put in bits about fuel consumption and tank volume.

If any part of the rules changed for the worse in SR4, it's the vehicle rules.

[Seerow]

Unfortunately you are still limited to either 2*15 (additional clip) or 19 (extended clip) shots. A beltfed heavy minigun sounds a lot more appealing, whether that weapon is available however is up to the GM.

Yeah, the GE Heavy Autocannon is a solid choice, being relatively cheap, and availability 20 makes it within the availability range with restricted gear, and being a minigun with good base damage stats. It's like having a full auto, minigun, modded Panther Assault Cannon.

[KarmaInferno]

Ok, i took a glance at Arsenal again and there already are medium drones with a Body >3, namely the Akiyama and the Otomo. The Tomino (a heavy drone) even has a Body of 10.

A Body of 6 is also appropriate for a PMV with cargo module, light trucks are a bit heavier than that.

I was kinda confused by the statement that a reinforced mount can hold any kind of weapon.
They actually can't, you're still restricted from using main guns. That would require a heavy turret, and a Body of at least 14.

I'll rephrase: Any small arm.

Personally, I'd go with two regular turrets, one with an Ingram with underbarrel MGL-12, and the other a sniper rifle maybe with underbarrel laser.

And a Panther Cannon hand-held.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)





-k

[CanRay]

Or go completely ghetto and mount a Streetline Special just to completely confuse the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Well, we could introduce completely new and revolutionary concepts such as a Customization Value, add info about vehicle size, number of seats and number of doors, hell, maybe even put in bits about fuel consumption and tank volume.

Making things more complex. As a self-declared powergamer, and computer scientist, I guarantee you that has never backfired. Please, be my guest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Rasumichin]

Yeah, the GE Heavy Autocannon is a solid choice, being relatively cheap, and availability 20 makes it within the availability range with restricted gear, and being a minigun with good base damage stats. It's like having a full auto, minigun, modded Panther Assault Cannon.

The Vanquisher is also a main gun, so you'd have to save up for a Tata Hotspur to have something to mount it on.

I'll rephrase: Any small arm.

Personally, I'd go with two regular turrets, one with an Ingram with underbarrel MGL-12, and the other a sniper rifle maybe with underbarrel laser.

And a Panther Cannon hand-held.

Nice choices, but i'd go with a Thunderstruck with underbarrel GL-67 as the handheld and would put two Vindicators on the weapon mounts, operated by piloting programs and used for suppressive fire as need be. It has to be Vindicators on the turrets, can't pass up that NO RECOIL advantage. On top of that, miniguns are best for suppressive fire, and suppressive fire is a prime use for shoulder/back-mounted weapons, whether on cyberlimb weapon mounts, their equivalent on military armor or on the turrets of that exoskeleton thing.
You won't fire all of these guns personally at the same time and the limited dicepools of piloting progs are no issue when you just hose bullets around.

Making things more complex. As a self-declared powergamer, and computer scientist, I guarantee you that has never backfired. Please, be my guest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Now that you mention it, there where some balancing issues with SR3 vehicle rules, but there'd be other ways to fix them than "lets simplify everything to the point where people constantly have to handwave things and nothing makes sense anymore". Particularly when some of these simplified rules introduce new balancing issues as well.

I generally like Arsenal's approach of limiting modding opportunities in contrast to earlier editions, it works fine for guns if you are willing to compromise a bit on plausibility in a few special cases, but the way it was pulled off in regards to vehicles just feels grating in general.
I repeat : vehicle rules are the big weak spot of this edition. Not only in regards to how Body is handled, but it's one of the main issues for more reasons than how to handle modding (see : dysfunctional damage scaling in War!).
These issues are not a result of more complexity, but come from a backfired attempt to cut down on it.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I liked Rigger 3 best (warts and all).

[Udoshi]

Or go completely ghetto and mount a Streetline Special just to completely confuse the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I've....

.... actually seen this. I don't think it was a streetline special, but it WAS a holdout.

Much to my shame. Or rather, our groups new rigger who was just learning the system.

[longbowrocks]

Couldn't he just look at the numbers? Even the number of letters in the word 'holdout' is less than the number of letters in 'heavy pistol', not to mention every number in the table (including price).

[Seerow]

Couldn't he just look at the numbers? Even the number of letters in the word 'holdout' is less than the number of letters in 'heavy pistol', not to mention every number in the table (including price).

Maybe he wanted a really concealable weapon mount? :iiam:

[longbowrocks]

I almost said something similar: "maybe he wanted everyone to think his weapon mounts were empty".

[Udoshi]

Personally, I'd go with two regular turrets, one with an Ingram with underbarrel MGL-12, and the other a sniper rifle maybe with underbarrel laser.

And a Panther Cannon hand-held.

Were I outfitting a cyborg, Lasers would almost definitely be involved. Since standard vehicles(small drones and up) can recharge power points over time, its a good, reliable investment.

You can fit plenty of extra damage in Cybergrenade launchers in your limbs.This is one area in which the 'mechanical arms get cyber capacity' rule actually makes plenty of sense.


Still.

I can't believe you guys are harping on the Iron Will.

The steam-themed dragon drone is hilariously cheap and effective for what it does: a Weapon Mount, on a Mini Drone, for less than 500 nuyen. Signal chips are hella cheap, too. Its what the Dragonfly wants to be when it grows up.