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> Optimizing character wealth at chargen
Shaikujin
post May 2 2011, 02:10 PM
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I was recently trying to squeeze as much money out of chargen. Have already factored in the 30k from debt, but it wasn't enough and I needed a bit more. Probably a well known thing, but I didn't see it posted before, so I thought I'd make a post on a couple of ways to optimize starting nuyen.

Here's a table of what each lifestyle costs, and the starting nuyen each can give you:


CODE

Lifestyle Cost Starting nuyen Max Max if we add the bonus from leftover chargen nuyen
Street Free 1d6 x 10 60 90
Squatter 500¥ 2d6 x 20 240 360
Low 2,000¥ 3d6 x 50 900 1350
Middle 5,000¥ 4d6 x 100 2400 3600
High 10,000¥ 4d6 x 500 12000 18000
Luxury 100,000¥ 4d6 x 1000 24000 36000




From the table above, if you look at the Max column, there are only 2 lifestyles that can potentially give you more nuyen than you put in - "Street" and "High". Of the 2, the "High" lifestyle is definitely more profitable. How do we add even more?

Also, note that every 100 nuyen that you have leftover from chargen gives you a +1 to the dice roll. The maximum dice you can get is equal to 3 times the number of dice rolled. ie 1d6 means you can get +3 the the dice roll, 2d6 means +6, 3d6 means +9, 4 d6 means +12.

Note that this is the only cap. If you roll the maximum 24 on your 4d6, you can still add an additional +12 on top of it. The maximum starting nuyen after factoring this bonus is represented by the last column. For the High lifestyle, setting aside that 1,200 nuyen during chargen will give you guaranteed returns of 6000 nuyen.

Even if you roll all "ones", the worst you can do is to get 8,000 at startup (the 2k you get from rolling 4 ones, plus the 6k). This makes the "High" lifestyle a better choice than the others if you can select it.



The next trick is that a lot of things are cheaper if bought in the blackmarket after chargen. Shadownrunners fence stuff at the base 30% of price. This is meant to limit the cash reserves of players. But it is not necessarily a bad thing and can be turned into an advantage as well. Why? Because this rule would apply to ALL NPC runners/smugglers/pirates/thieves that are fencing their stuff too.

Then there is a -20% modifier to make it cheaper if the items are stolen. Unless the NPC runners are selling something that they have manufactured themselves, chances are, the stuff they are fencing are stolen.

It's a matter of legwork and availability tests (think eBay in 2070) to cut out the middleman and simply find other Shadowrunners selling stuff they have stolen. It may not even be secondhand.



3rd trick, this one might be vetoed by your GM, but it is RAW. Now, you can't bring unspent nuyen in chargen into the game. But technically, you can buy certified credsticks for 25 nuyen, then put in your remaining 250,000 nuyen into the credstick (minus lifestyle, the 1.2 k reserve, a cheap commlink and perhaps a fake SIN etc).

Eg for a solid commlink, after chargen, upgrade it yourself at 50% of the cost. On top of that, buy stolen components at 10% the cost. Meaning you can get your 6/6/6/6 commlink at 5% of the normal costs. Load up with rating 4 freeware (from Unwired) and you have a pretty decent hacker setup for next to nothing.



Voila, you can now potetially turn that 250,000 nuyen into 2,500,000 worth of gear. Not all this will fly with your GMs, so YMMV.

Thoughts anyone? Any other tricks you'd care to share?
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Fortinbras
post May 2 2011, 02:36 PM
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Did you ever see Rainman? At the beginning when Tom Cruise thinks he can sell sports cars for pennies on the dollar? No? It's cool, I won't spoil the surprise.

Not only does this line of logic not follow any of the rules as written, it doesn't even follow logic. Selling things for 10% of their value is a baseline for runners getting rid of goods. There are no rules for what it takes to obtain said items for 10%. If it was expected that runners could obtain said gear for 10% of their value, there would be rules for doing so. There aren't. No rules for legwork or Availability to obtain things cheaper than they are. This is presumed because being a fixer is a full time job, otherwise everyone would do it. While this might work if you wanted to play a group of fixers, until you can give a RAW for how one can buy gear at 10% of the base cost, I maintain you forfeit the right to use the term RAW.

Secondly, starting nuyen is starting nuyen, not starting nuyen per device. Putting nuyen onto a credstick no longer makes it not count towards your starting total. Where did you think it was in the first place?

Thirdly, if you really want to get into hackers utilizing cheap materialize, get yourself a copy of War! and look at the piracy section of Unwired. I'm sure you'll have a field day.

Lastly, if time weren't an issue to Shadowrunners, anyone could make tons of nuyen using creation rules. It is and, therefore, isn't part of gameplay. When you make a starting character, you make a starting character, not a starting character +12 months. Your idea for creating a 2.5 million nuyen starting character require far more approval from a GM than rulings from a GM to disallow it.
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Irion
post May 2 2011, 03:17 PM
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@Shaikujin
QUOTE
It's a matter of legwork and availability tests (think eBay in 2070) to cut out the middleman and simply find other Shadowrunners selling stuff they have stolen. It may not even be secondhand.

Yeah, and if you use it it breaks down. (Or you get an infection from the bioware you are getting)
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Shaikujin
post May 2 2011, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Not only does this line of logic not follow any of the rules as written, it doesn't even follow logic. Selling things for 10% of their value is a baseline for runners getting rid of goods. There are no rules for what it takes to obtain said items for 10%. If it was expected that runners could obtain said gear for 10% of their value, there would be rules for doing so. There aren't. No rules for legwork or Availability to obtain things cheaper than they are. This is presumed because being a fixer is a full time job, otherwise everyone would do it.



What do you mean? When buying off the black market, there are rules that adjusts the street values to anywhere from 10% to 190% and how that affects the availability:


SR4A pg 312
QUOTE
Note that many standard goods can also be purchased on the
black market. An Availability Test is usually not necessary, but the
gamemaster should adjust the price as noted under Street Values.


QUOTE
Sometimes
black market goods are much cheaper (no tax!), other times they’re
much more expensive. The gamemaster determines which variables
affect the asking price, using the suggestions on the Street Costs table
(at left) as a guideline.


The listed prices are only when you buy from the official channels. Whenever you buy stuff from the black market, street values come into play, right?



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 02:36 PM) *
While this might work if you wanted to play a group of fixers, until you can give a RAW for how one can buy gear at 10% of the base cost, I maintain you forfeit the right to use the term RAW.


Whoa, cool down there, don't get so fired up. I didn't use RAW for this part.



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Secondly, starting nuyen is starting nuyen, not starting nuyen per device. Putting nuyen onto a credstick no longer makes it not count towards your starting total. Where did you think it was in the first place?


Correct, it doesn't. That's not what I am saying. The starting nuyen is determined from the 4d6 x 500 formula in the first part of my post. I am suggesting putting the :

"remaining 250,000 nuyen into the credstick (minus lifestyle, the 1.2 k reserve, a cheap commlink and perhaps a fake SIN etc)."


This is similar to buying gear using the 250,000 at chargen, then selling it after game starts. But since I have a certified credstick worth 250,000 which doesn't need to be fenced, I can use that certified credstick to buy other gear after chargen.

The certified credstick part is where I said "RAW".

You can purchase gear during chargen. This is RAW, right?
A certified credstick is a piece of gear that can be purchased during chargen just like you can purchase a gun at chargen. This is RAW, right?
You can purchase a certified platinum credstick for 250,000 nuyen at chargen. This is RAW, right?



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Thirdly, if you really want to get into hackers utilizing cheap materialize, get yourself a copy of War! and look at the piracy section of Unwired. I'm sure you'll have a field day.



Yes, I know pirated software costs 10% of the list price (but will degrade every month). But it only works for software. Note that I said

"Load up with rating 4 freeware (from Unwired)"

I'm actually not aiming to have top of the line software, just decent ones that are free for a new character.



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Lastly, if time weren't an issue to Shadowrunners, anyone could make tons of nuyen using creation rules. It is and, therefore, isn't part of gameplay. When you make a starting character, you make a starting character, not a starting character +12 months. Your idea for creating a 2.5 million nuyen starting character require far more approval from a GM than rulings from a GM to disallow it.


No one is really making tons of nuyen or even 2.5 mil nuyen. It's still more or less the same 250,000 nuyen that you have purchased during chargen using BP. I'm just saving it to be used after chargen when the prices are better.

Also, I said "a lot of things are cheaper if bought in the blackmarket after chargen".

That means not everything will be cheaper from the blackmarket, stuff like deltaware augmentation that requires a delta clinic, you really can't get it any much cheaper on the black market. Also, things like fake SINs, it's already illegal, buying stolen/2nd hand fake SINs from the blackmarket would be much cheaper or beneficial either.



And no one's starting play 12 months down the road. Just get the essential things that you really need to get by, like a commlink/fake SIN, and weapons/armour depending if the GM will be throwing you into Food Fight first or directly into a full fledged run.

Availability interval for items between 1,000 to 10,000 nuyen is 2 days. 12 hours to 1 day for cheaper items. Only items above 10k have 1 week interval. Unless you are buying costly items like vehicles or augmentation, this can be done during the times you are doing legwork for your runs.

Yes, GMs can still say no, so your mileage may vary.
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Irion
post May 2 2011, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE
No one is really making tons of nuyen or even 2.5 mil nuyen. It's still more or less the same 250,000 nuyen that you have purchased during chargen using BP. I'm just saving it to be used after chargen when the prices are better.

By the rules you do not get any better prices.
A GM might give you better prices but than he is more than free to give to product drawbacks.

Bio or Cyberware with an infection of any kind. Or some bugs.
Firearms that explode if you fire them etc.
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Yerameyahu
post May 2 2011, 04:27 PM
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As I'm sure people already said, the only thing that really modifies black market stuff are the GM-controlled Street Costs modifiers, which can be positive or negative, and start at the base of 100% list price. The 30% (or less) is indeed for PC fencing only.

You didn't even use the standard tricks of the trust fund quality, the day job/fame, or a black market pipeline. Tsk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Shaikujin
post May 2 2011, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ May 2 2011, 03:17 PM) *
@Shaikujin

Yeah, and if you use it it breaks down. (Or you get an infection from the bioware you are getting)


Ahh, but so will potentially any stolen gear that is bought from the black market if the GM so rules.

And a lot of things have to be bought from the black market simply because the characters have no way to get them legally.
This applies to gear that are forbidden and also restricted items that the characters do no have a license for.



There are things that you simply can can't as stolen goods from the black market though. Mainly things that other NPC runners can't hock off and sell themselves. Augmentation is one of these, esp deltaware where you need a deltaware clinic.




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Fortinbras
post May 2 2011, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (Shaikujin @ May 2 2011, 11:04 AM) *
The listed prices are only when you buy from the official channels. Whenever you buy stuff from the black market, street values come into play, right?

By that logic, everything anyone buys should only cost 10% of the listed price. Heck, by that logic, if you use all the discounts available, equipment should cost -60% of listed cost. Therefore, you should make money every time you buy something!
In any event, obtaining gear in Shadowrun is made perfectly clear: Base price as adjusted by street cost. The 30% is a fencing discount, the result of which is made by fixers. There are no rules as to how one does such a thing, therefore you have to go by the table listed in the book.
If you can find a GM that says everything in the book is 10% of the listed cost, fine, but that is in no way what RAW says.
QUOTE
This is similar to buying gear using the 250,000 at chargen, then selling it after game starts. But since I have a certified credstick worth 250,000 which doesn't need to be fenced, I can use that certified credstick to buy other gear after chargen.
The certified credstick part is where I said "RAW".
You can purchase gear during chargen. This is RAW, right?
A certified credstick is a piece of gear that can be purchased during chargen just like you can purchase a gun at chargen. This is RAW, right?
You can purchase a certified platinum credstick for 250,000 nuyen at chargen. This is RAW, right?

An empty certified credtick costs 25 nuyen. You cannot purchase a platinum credstick for 250,000 at chargen. Nowhere in the equipment chapter does it say you can. Nowhere in the equipment chapter does it imply you can. Starting nuyen is starting nuyen, regardless of which format one puts it in.
QUOTE
No one is really making tons of nuyen or even 2.5 mil nuyen. It's still more or less the same 250,000 nuyen that you have purchased during chargen using BP. I'm just saving it to be used after chargen when the prices are better.

Also, I said "a lot of things are cheaper if bought in the blackmarket after chargen".

You are. You said: Voila, now you can potentially turn that 250,000 into 2.5 million nuyen. Things are only cheaper on the black market after character generation if they are using a buy rate not in the rules, but rather in an assumption. To get that much cash at character generation isn't in the rules either.
Your idea to make millions after chargen is reliant upon the idea that you can convince your GM to let you buy gear at 10%, which you can't do, of the cost and that he lets you take your 250,000 starting nuyen and turn it into cash, which you can't do.

I have a great idea for a starting character that is immune to bullets, pending GM approval.
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Shaikujin
post May 2 2011, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ May 2 2011, 04:25 PM) *
By the rules you do not get any better prices.
A GM might give you better prices but than he is more than free to give to product drawbacks.

Bio or Cyberware with an infection of any kind. Or some bugs.
Firearms that explode if you fire them etc.



Yes, quite true, a GM definitely can definitely rule which modifiers in the street costs table should be applied.

As to the defects, I might have missed this, in which case what I am suggesting will carry a large risk. Are there rules that says gear bought from the blackmarket have product defects?
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Irion
post May 2 2011, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE
Are there rules that says gear bought from the blackmarket have product defects?

Thats always up to the GM.

But the rules are saying the goods from the black market cost LIST price. THERE IS NO WAY TO LOWER THAT PRICE.


So if you get stuff for less it is not the stuff out of the Arsenal, Core Book etc. It is stuff the GM made up. This stuff may have effects as the GM pleases.

In short: It is considered unfair to kick the players in the back if they play by the book. But if the players want to get benefits outside the book, they should also get risks outside the book.
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Shaikujin
post May 2 2011, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 04:39 PM) *
By that logic, everything anyone buys should only cost 10% of the listed price. Heck, by that logic, if you use all the discounts available, equipment should cost -60% of listed cost. Therefore, you should make money every time you buy something!


Not everything, I said "a lot of" things. There are certains things which I have said will not benefit from cheaper prices when buying from the black market. Yes, I know it depends on the GM on whether this can be made available to characters. But the rules do really have a table that give modifiers to the price.

I know you are trying to prove a point by using an example that would show how absurd it can become, but you are beginning to twist things. No reason why we can't discuss this rationally.

And there will never be profits, the gear you are selling would be also subject to the same modifiers of 30% minus the 20% from being stolen/used.



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 04:39 PM) *
In any event, obtaining gear in Shadowrun is made perfectly clear: Base price as adjusted by street cost. The 30% is a fencing discount, the result of which is made by fixers. There are no rules as to how one does such a thing, therefore you have to go by the table listed in the book.
If you can find a GM that says everything in the book is 10% of the listed cost, fine, but that is in no way what RAW says.

An empty certified credtick costs 25 nuyen. You cannot purchase a platinum credstick for 250,000 at chargen. Nowhere in the equipment chapter does it say you can. Nowhere in the equipment chapter does it imply you can. Starting nuyen is starting nuyen, regardless of which format one puts it in.


Starting nuyen is the amount that is given by the formula 4D6 x 500. This amount of money can be in the form of certified credsticks, credit account etc. But cannot be in gear form.

Note that the line above does not mean that you can't have other gear or certified credsticks that is worth money available to you.

As to no rules in the equipment chapter that says I can purchase a 250,000 credstick at chargen, or fill a credstick with 250,000 - there are also no rules in the equipment chapter that says you can load your ammo into your gun at chargen. There are no rules in the equipment chapter that implies you can.

How is loading ammo you own into your gun during chargen different from loading your own nuyen credit into your certified credstick? Does it mean that there are no rules for this, loading your gun in chargen is not allowed?



Ok, let's look at this another way without credsticks. Alternatively, I can buy 250,000 nuyen worth datachips. I can also buy 250,000 worth of gold bars. Or a plot of land by permanent lifestyle. All of these can be sold legitimately without going through a fencer and allow me to carry my 250,000 nuyen out of chargen.



Yes, I understand the logic behind this would be that having such a certified credstick, my starting nuyen should include this 250k. But the only rule for starting nuyen is simply to generate the 4d6 x 500 (or other formulas depending on lifestyle).



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 04:39 PM) *
You are. You said: Voila, now you can potentially turn that 250,000 into 2.5 million nuyen.


I said:
"Voila, you can now potetially turn that 250,000 nuyen into 2,500,000 worth of gear"



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 04:39 PM) *
Things are only cheaper on the black market after character generation if they are using a buy rate not in the rules, but rather in an assumption. To get that much cash at character generation isn't in the rules either.
Your idea to make millions after chargen is reliant upon the idea that you can convince your GM to let you buy gear at 10%, which you can't do, of the cost and that he lets you take your 250,000 starting nuyen and turn it into cash, which you can't do.


I am not trying to get millions. I am trying to make my 250,000 buy more. Yes, I agree that it will not fly with all GMs and mentioned it in my original post that everyone's mileage may vary.



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 04:39 PM) *
I have a great idea for a starting character that is immune to bullets, pending GM approval.


Now, I understand that you are trying to prove a point to me by using an example that seems absurd, but you are using unreasonable examples and being a bit condescending.
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Mäx
post May 2 2011, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Shaikujin @ May 2 2011, 07:45 PM) *
As to the defects, I might have missed this, in which case what I am suggesting will carry a large risk. Are there rules that says gear bought from the blackmarket have product defects?

Nope, but you must be out of your mind if your planning to buy a bunch of stolen counterfeit gear that was used in a resent crime for you character at the start of the game and expect there to be no drawbacks.
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Yerameyahu
post May 2 2011, 05:40 PM
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It won't fly with any GM. It's flatly against the rules. The 30% fencing mod is for fencing only. What you're suggesting is not merely a flagrant end-run around the chargen rules, it's also just against the normal buying rules. Even if you contented yourself with the credstick exploit (again, merely flagrant, instead of completely against the rules), that would still be disgusting high-order munchkinry—exactly what the GM is there to stop.

It's the same as the face claiming that he should get to negotiate the price of everything at chargen, or the hacker should have infinite downtime to pre-write his programs, or the mechanic/armorer already did all his own mods, etc. It's not a question of 'does it make sense?'. It's chargen balance. After all, the sam could just say he got his gear free by pointing a gun at people. Or, my personal favorite, that all his deltaware cyber is okay and free, cuz he's an escaped special ops research project! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) All of these are things that happen after chargen, in play, with GM and rules mediating them.
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Fortinbras
post May 2 2011, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (Shaikujin @ May 2 2011, 12:30 PM) *
Not everything, I said "a lot of" things. There are certains things which I have said will not benefit from cheaper prices when buying from the black market. Yes, I know it depends on the GM on whether this can be made available to characters. But the rules do really have a table that give modifiers to the price.

Said rules table is on page. 312. It is subject to fiat. Your assumption is that all gear bought would be at 30% discount listed in fencing gear, which is clearly not something a PC can do.
QUOTE
Ok, let's look at this another way without credsticks. Alternatively, I can buy 250,000 nuyen worth datachips. I can also buy 250,000 worth of gold bars. Or a plot of land by permanent lifestyle. All of these can be sold legitimately without going through a fencer and allow me to carry my 250,000 nuyen out of chargen.

No. You cannot start the game with more nuyen than your Starting nuyen as per your Lifestyle. Page 88. "Nuyen used to purchase gear under Resources doesn’t carry over when you finish character creation and are ready to play." That's the end of it. If you could, you wouldn't have needed to make up that drek about buying a platinum credstick to begin with.
You can't save your 250K in land, stock, nuyen, credstick or anything else that translates as cash. You can buy ammo. You can't buy nuyen.
To sell any equipment, datachips and the like, the only things you can spend your 250k on, you would need to use the fencing rules. Those are the only rules for turning equipment into cash. That is where your 30% comes in. It's meant for PCs selling things, not PCs buying things.
QUOTE
Now, I understand that you are trying to prove a point to me by using an example that seems absurd, but you are using unreasonable examples and being a bit condescending.

You are trying to prove a point that you have found this astonishing loophole that no one has thought of before and would like us to pat you on the back for this idea despite the fact that it ignores rules as written, rules as intended and logic in general.
This concept seems predicated on the idea that:

1)BP spent on Gear can be made into cash.(Against the rules)
2)Equipment after chargen only costs 10% of the listed price(Against the rules)

This idea is based upon the notion that your GM may allow it, but to consider a GM allowing something that is pretty explicitly not allowed places the burden of proof upon you, not upon us.
Much like I could start a post about how I have a character that is immune to bullets, and while YOUR GM may not allow it and your millage may vary, it is totally legit. As long as you only read the parts of the book I highlight.
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KarmaInferno
post May 2 2011, 06:44 PM
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Anything that requires a GM to make stuff up for it to work is, by definition, not RAW.

If you see any passages in rulesbooks that are like, "You GM can determine the details if they want to do this", that's the rules saying, "This isn't covered by the rules, go ahead and houserule it if you want".




-k
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eyeBliss
post May 3 2011, 05:01 AM
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This all seems like a pointless exercise in accounting. Your GM will allow what he's going to allow regardless of what justification you try to come up with. I'm more interested in exactly how the character you're proposing became a shadowrunner. If you're putting all of your resources towards maximizing your starting cash, everything else is going to be under developed. This also seems to suggest that your character has almost no criminal experience, so exactly how is he dealing exclusively in black market items? I'm a fairly resourceful guy and used to know a few questionable people, but IRL the only illicit goods I could reasonably find are a wide variety of drugs. I'd have no idea where to start if I wanted a fake identity, weapons or military goods. I can actually see it being kind of fun playing someone who really wants to be a shadowrunner and has the financial resources, but no practical experience and few connections. It will be interesting seeing if you survive long enough to develop the skills and relationships necessary to run the shadows.
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Epicedion
post May 3 2011, 06:04 AM
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Gear simply isn't fenced to players. Why? Because they're runners, not fences.

Buying and selling goods on the black market requires the use of your contacts, who likely have a vested interest in keeping their jobs. What they're not going to do is cut themselves out of the loop and hook you up directly with another runner team to grab the gear at 10% of its value. The fence is going to acquire the gear, then sell it to a supplier at a markup. Then that supplier is going to sell it to a dealer at an additional markup. That dealer is going to get paired up with a runner and sell it at an additional markup. So what made it to the fence at 30% of its value is going to be full value minus a few mitigating factors by the time it gets to your hands.

If you want to bypass the supply line, prepare to be blacklisted by your contacts.
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Badmoodguy88
post May 3 2011, 06:06 AM
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The notion of trying to buy pre-fenced gear of random gang/shadowrun people you are somewhat freindly with does not seem all that insane an idea, just unorthodox.

"Hey have you heard anything about such and such. Cool, oh and do you have any guns your looking to fence? Nah I don't need another ruger thunderbolt. What about this assault riffle? Used in a murder? No problem we are planing on doing a few of our own with it." The price would probably be higher then a fence would pay and lower than a fence would sell it for.

Of course what is available is entirely dictated by chance and the GM so you would basically never get what you wanted unless it is a common item to be fenced. It could be a plot hook if your face made a habit of it. "Hey you like weird magic drek right? Well take a look at this."

As for the high lifestyle giving more money out? I think I had heard something like that. But it was I think related to how fast your heal times are. Anyway seems worth it for that. A small optimization piled onto of so many others. The other stuff does seem like something a GM would veto so don't even worry about it.
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longbowrocks
post May 3 2011, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 2 2011, 09:27 AM) *
As I'm sure people already said, the only thing that really modifies black market stuff are the GM-controlled Street Costs modifiers, which can be positive or negative, and start at the base of 100% list price. The 30% (or less) is indeed for PC fencing only.

You didn't even use the standard tricks of the trust fund quality, the day job/fame, or a black market pipeline. Tsk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Instead, he was much more creative. Disappointing, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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longbowrocks
post May 3 2011, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 09:39 AM) *
I have a great idea for a starting character that is immune to bullets, pending GM approval.

I have a great idea for rolling my dice pool as attribute + skill, pending GM approval. GM makes or breaks it no matter what you're talking about. I see what you're trying to say though.
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Shaikujin
post May 3 2011, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 2 2011, 05:40 PM) *
It won't fly with any GM. It's flatly against the rules. The 30% fencing mod is for fencing only. What you're suggesting is not merely a flagrant end-run around the chargen rules, it's also just against the normal buying rules. Even if you contented yourself with the credstick exploit (again, merely flagrant, instead of completely against the rules), that would still be disgusting high-order munchkinry—exactly what the GM is there to stop.

It's the same as the face claiming that he should get to negotiate the price of everything at chargen, or the hacker should have infinite downtime to pre-write his programs, or the mechanic/armorer already did all his own mods, etc. It's not a question of 'does it make sense?'. It's chargen balance. After all, the sam could just say he got his gear free by pointing a gun at people. Or, my personal favorite, that all his deltaware cyber is okay and free, cuz he's an escaped special ops research project! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) All of these are things that happen after chargen, in play, with GM and rules mediating them.


I was going to say sourcing out NPC runners to buy their discounted illegal goods is no where near the same magnitude, but I re-read your examples and what you are saying makes sense.
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Shaikujin
post May 3 2011, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 06:12 PM) *
Said rules table is on page. 312. It is subject to fiat. Your assumption is that all gear bought would be at 30% discount listed in fencing gear, which is clearly not something a PC can do.


I re-read the previous posts, and I think I understand what you are trying to say now. It doesn't matter that there are rules to adjust the prices. The issue is that there are no rules for players to buy fenced goods directly from the source and hence, this is the part that requires GM fiat.

Also, I re-read the rules about the GM should (not free to, but "should") use the street costs table when characters buy from the blackmarket, but there after, which variable to apply, if any is entirely up to the GM. So this does require more GM rulings to allow as you mentioned.



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 06:12 PM) *
No. You cannot start the game with more nuyen than your Starting nuyen as per your Lifestyle. Page 88. "Nuyen used to purchase gear under Resources doesn’t carry over when you finish character creation and are ready to play." That's the end of it. If you could, you wouldn't have needed to make up that drek about buying a platinum credstick to begin with.
You can't save your 250K in land, stock, nuyen, credstick or anything else that translates as cash. You can buy ammo. You can't buy nuyen.
To sell any equipment, datachips and the like, the only things you can spend your 250k on, you would need to use the fencing rules. Those are the only rules for turning equipment into cash. That is where your 30% comes in. It's meant for PCs selling things, not PCs buying things.


For this part, I still think there are ways to bring nuyen out of chargen legitimately without going against RAW. It's going to be pointless if I can't get cheaper stuff consistently though. But here goes:

1) Nuyen purchased with BP if unused, cannot be brought into play after chargen. But as soon as it is used to purchase gear, said gear can be carried over. Only restrictions to the gear at chargen is rating 6 and availability 12. A 250k nuyen marker meets both criterias. Or to get around the words, use the 250k nuyen to buy UCAS dollars. Then it's no longer nuyen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, entirely not RAI. And basically playing wordgames around RAW.

2) This might be slightly better, one of the things I mentioned was datachips. The reason is that datachips cost 1 nuyen each. Fencing it at 30% will still mean each chip is sold at 1 nuyen due to how SR4 round off numbers to the advantage of players. Of course, one drawback is that GM may insist that each chip be sold individually.

3) This 3rd method is the most RAW legal. I also mentioned perma lifestyles. Perma lifestyles of middle or higher can be sold at 2d6 x 10% as long as the character is a SINner (yes, there's even a small chance of earning a profit). Using advanced lifestyles, middle lifestyle starts at 2,600 (means 260,000 to buy it permanently). Well within the means of a starting char plus 10 BPs of debt.



QUOTE (Fortinbras @ May 2 2011, 06:12 PM) *
You are trying to prove a point that you have found this astonishing loophole that no one has thought of before and would like us to pat you on the back for this idea despite the fact that it ignores rules as written, rules as intended and logic in general.


I readily admit to this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) There is no small measure of vanity on my part. Didn't work out too well this time, but I'll come up with better ideas next time!


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Shaikujin
post May 3 2011, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ May 3 2011, 06:06 AM) *
The notion of trying to buy pre-fenced gear of random gang/shadowrun people you are somewhat freindly with does not seem all that insane an idea, just unorthodox.

"Hey have you heard anything about such and such. Cool, oh and do you have any guns your looking to fence? Nah I don't need another ruger thunderbolt. What about this assault riffle? Used in a murder? No problem we are planing on doing a few of our own with it." The price would probably be higher then a fence would pay and lower than a fence would sell it for.

Of course what is available is entirely dictated by chance and the GM so you would basically never get what you wanted unless it is a common item to be fenced. It could be a plot hook if your face made a habit of it. "Hey you like weird magic drek right? Well take a look at this."


Yup, that's why I was thinking to use legwork and availability. Thank you for believing that I'm not insane!



QUOTE (Badmoodguy88 @ May 3 2011, 06:06 AM) *
As for the high lifestyle giving more money out? I think I had heard something like that. But it was I think related to how fast your heal times are. Anyway seems worth it for that. A small optimization piled onto of so many others. The other stuff does seem like something a GM would veto so don't even worry about it.


Thank you again, you are the only one that mentioned the high lifestyle part (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There's something related to fast heal times as well? Hmmm... this begs more study...
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Epicedion
post May 3 2011, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Shaikujin @ May 3 2011, 10:17 AM) *
2) This might be slightly better, one of the things I mentioned was datachips. The reason is that datachips cost 1 nuyen each. Fencing it at 30% will still mean each chip is sold at 1 nuyen due to how SR4 round off numbers to the advantage of players. Of course, one drawback is that GM may insist that each chip be sold individually.


A reasonable response would involve selling them in batches of 10 for 3 nuyen, which maintains their 30% base value. The selling rules don't represent runners being able to dump gear off into the void and get cash. They represent people in the game world that will buy their stuff. If the options are a stolen chip for 1 nuyen (rounded up), or a new one from the Stuffer Shack for 1 nuyen, any reasonable buyer is going to go to the Stuffer Shack. People will only pay equivalent price or more for stuff they can't already acquire legally.

Otherwise:

The fencing and buying rules are designed to simplify a somewhat complex process combining legwork and negotiation. You could base entire game sessions on the characters running around looking for the right fence and haggling for better deals on used assault weapons. However, most groups probably don't want to do that every time they buy or sell anything, so you have rules to cover it all with a few dice rolls and a tiny bit of math. Attempting to subvert those rules is silly. They're an abstraction of roleplay.
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Fortinbras
post May 3 2011, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (Shaikujin @ May 3 2011, 10:17 AM) *
So this does require more GM rulings to allow as you mentioned.

So, if the GM allows you to break the rules, you can break the rules.
That's fine. You can develop some neat house rules with your GM. Go nuts. That isn't a rules exploit or creative new take on the genre. That's just one of the many loop holes the writers saw to it to close. Deciding you should be able to re-open it is neither new or creative.
QUOTE
1) Nuyen purchased with BP if unused, cannot be brought into play after chargen. But as soon as it is used to purchase gear, said gear can be carried over. Only restrictions to the gear at chargen is rating 6 and availability 12. A 250k nuyen marker meets both criterias. Or to get around the words, use the 250k nuyen to buy UCAS dollars. Then it's no longer nuyen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, entirely not RAI. And basically playing wordgames around RAW.

Show me where, in the equipment section, it says you can buy a 250k marker or UCAS dollars. You can buy an empty credstick, and that's about it. If you can't, then it's not gear. Then it is neither RAI or RAW or anything other than your idea that money isn't money if you put it in a wallet.
QUOTE
2) This might be slightly better, one of the things I mentioned was datachips. The reason is that datachips cost 1 nuyen each. Fencing it at 30% will still mean each chip is sold at 1 nuyen due to how SR4 round off numbers to the advantage of players. Of course, one drawback is that GM may insist that each chip be sold individually.

Numbers don't round to the player's advantage in SR4. They round up, down or normally. Selling a datachip for 30% of it's price nets you .3 nuyen. Unless you can show me anything that says you round up to the nearest nuyen when determining price after selling things.

QUOTE
3) This 3rd method is the most RAW legal. I also mentioned perma lifestyles. Perma lifestyles of middle or higher can be sold at 2d6 x 10% as long as the character is a SINner (yes, there's even a small chance of earning a profit). Using advanced lifestyles, middle lifestyle starts at 2,600 (means 260,000 to buy it permanently). Well within the means of a starting char plus 10 BPs of debt.

10 BP debt isn't a thing. You can, however, take the Born Rich Quality. In which case you can buy an 11 point Lifestyle for 260,000 or 52 BP + the Quality cost. This is not, however a Middle or better Lifestyle. This is worse than a Middle Lifestyle and, therefore, cannot be sold.

QUOTE
I readily admit to this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) There is no small measure of vanity on my part. Didn't work out too well this time, but I'll come up with better ideas next time!

I made a character that is invincible and has a 1 million in all his stats. He's a techno mage samurai face rigger. It takes some GM approval, but other than that, aren't I brilliant!
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