[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't mind him, he's learning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That phrase is referring to the fact that you can't target physical objects from the astral, longbowrocks. That is, auras are visible on the astral plane, but they're not 'present'… so they can't be targeted. I know I already told you this in the other thread.

Patience, Yerameyahu... He is still learning. Remember? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

It seems like a logical way to look at things. In fact, it doesn't break the game, but rather prevents mages from breaking the game by using assensing in a way its not meant to be used. All in all, feels like RAI to me. It also sounds like RAW, unless someone has a more relevant excerpt.

• A typical mystical link is formed through perception of a target, not knowledge of the target's location.
• Assensing an aura on the astral plane, which is no different than an aura on the physical plane, will allow you to target and enemy.

Therefore you cannot target physical enemies with astral perception. Q.E.D.

• "A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision."
• "Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight."

Therefore you cannot target physical enemies with astral perception. Q.E.D.

*edit: removed code tags. They aren't being very helpful right now.

[Yerameyahu]

Except the rules are explicit that you can, in multiple places. The clearest, classic example—but hardly the only one—is that blind magicians (e.g. ghouls) can cast spells using their astral sense. Don't you QED at us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The difference is being on the same plane. If you're both on the physical, seeing their aura *is* seeing them (if anything, it's more real, metaphysically). The issue is casting across planes. It's like there's a big sheet of glass 'under' the astral: you can see auras on the physical, but you can't reach them.

[longbowrocks]

Except the rules are explicit that you can, in multiple places. The clearest, classic example—but hardly the only one—is that blind magicians (e.g. ghouls) can cast spells using their astral sense. Don't you QED at us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you don't mind me asking; where are the multiple places? I won't argue that they can cast on the astral plane using astral senses, but I don't see anything about it either way in RC.


I thought this might be covered under blindness in RC, but no such luck. I do find it odd that they confirm that blindness does not inhibit astral perception (no one would expect it to), but neglect to mention anything about physical casting (which readers would ask at this point).
"Note that since their astral perception is not a visual sense, Awakened characters with the Blind quality may
still perceive astrally, though gamemasters are advised to strictly
apply the Astral Visibility modifiers on p. 114 of Street Magic."

I can see this partially supporting your side, but the opening of this paragraph clearly states that it pertains to the astral realm.
"Determining cover works the same way on the astral
plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and
insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting.
Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world
(like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell
targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical
shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura."

The difference is being on the same plane. If you're both on the physical, seeing their aura *is* seeing them (if anything, it's more real, metaphysically). The issue is casting across planes. It's like there's a big sheet of glass 'under' the astral: you can see auras on the physical, but you can't reach them.

A character using astral perception is active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously. However, they cannot target both simultaneously. They need to spend a simple action to switch their perception between planes.

If you can be attacked on both planes simultaneously, it would make sense that you could attack on both planes simultaneously, since there is something physically there to attack with. All you need to do is glue on some nasty astrally active daggers and sprint around wildly as you attack on the physical plane. The issue with magic is that you need to forma mystical link, which cannot be done without perceiving your target's body (astral or physical).

[Yerameyahu]

There are several old threads on this exact issue (I dunno how you keep doing this in unrelated threads! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), but I'll be brief.

The simplest point is this one, directly from the specific rules on targeting spells:

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space.

… There's really no argument possible after that.

This bit is wrong, by the way:

However, they cannot target both simultaneously. They need to spend a simple action to switch their perception between planes.

As you see above, they *can* do both. 'Shifting perception' is actually just turning astral sense on or off. The sense itself is still *dual* (as in 'Dual-Natured', when you're doing it from a physical body). So, your confusion was based on an incorrect proposition. Glad to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Taken with a grain of salt since the following implies that an astrally perceiving character can cast spells at characters in in the physical or astral realm willy-nilly, which we both know is false since you need a simple action to switch.
"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space."
I don't think the writers ever expected someone to be so desperate that he would attempt to replace physical sight with assensing for casting on the physical plane.

This bit is wrong, by the way: As you see above, they *can* do both. 'Shifting perception' is actually just turning astral sense on or off. The sense itself is still *dual* (as in 'Dual-Natured', when you're doing it from a physical body). So, your confusion was based on an incorrect proposition. Glad to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This incorrect proposition is about as prolific as sliced bread, and goes way beyond prepositions.

Shift Perception: A Simple Action allows a magician to shift perception to or from astral
space. Actual astral projection requires a Complex Action. See Astral Perception, p. 191.

It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail). A character using astral perception
is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral
planes simultaneously.

[Badmoodguy88]

I thought that only applied to things that aren't fulltime dual-nature like ghouls and shape shifters.

[longbowrocks]

Magicians are full-time dual-natured. I don't know if they have a specific core rule set for dual natured critters and the like when it comes to astral perception.

*edit: nevermind. I really thought I heard someone complaining about other characters being able to snipe mages at any time through the astral plane, but I guess I misremembered.

[Epicedion]

Magicians aren't full-time dual-natured. They only become dual-natured when they turn on astral perception.

An astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules.

An astrally projecting magician can only cast spells at astral targets (including dual-natured targets, including astrally perceiving magicians).

A character can spend a simple action to "turn on" astral perception, at which point they see the astral plane but remain active in the physical plane, thus becoming dual-natured. The character may spend a simple action to "turn off" astral perception, at which point they lose their dual-natured status and stop perceiving astrally.

[longbowrocks]

An astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules.

As stated explicitly in the rules, which I quoted above, it is not possible to see the astral and physical planes at the same time. It takes a simple action to switch.

[Yerameyahu]

Taken with a grain of salt since the following implies that an astrally perceiving character can cast spells at characters in in the physical or astral realm willy-nilly, which we both know is false since you need a simple action to switch

Again, no. What you call 'willy-nilly isn't just implied, it's explicitly stated in the targeting rules (this phrase is really fun!). The 'switching' you're referring to is switching between astral sense and physical senses; astral sense effectively works in both. I'm not trying to be mean or anything (I've even argued that astral perception targeting on the physical *shouldn't* be the rules), but this is a core concept in the magic system.

I don't see what's unclear about my earlier quote: astral perceiving = spells on physical or astral.

[Epicedion]

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.

This explicitly states that an astrally perceiving magician can cast spells at physical targets.

What it says above that:

Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted).

This restriction only applies to a magician in astral space. Not to an astrally perceiving one.

Physical space: target things in physical space.
Astral space: target things in astral space.
Astrally perceiving (dual-natured): either.

The rules are fairly clear on this.

[CanRay]

When all else fails, just pull what The Engineer suggests: Add more gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Again, no. What you call 'willy-nilly isn't just implied, it's explicitly stated in the targeting rules (this phrase is really fun!). The 'switching' you're referring to is switching between astral sense and physical senses; astral sense effectively works in both. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but this is a core concept in the magic system.

I don't see what's unclear about my earlier quote: astral perceiving = spells on physical or astral.

I'm not trying to be mean either, but I'm saying that this supersedes that.

It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time

One of the core rules of the magic system is "that which you cannot perceive, you cannot cast on". IIRC, we were arguing about what constitutes "perception" in this context based on the rules for magic.
However, the book is clearly saying that you cannot perceive on both planes simultaneously this case, and therefore you cannot cast on both planes simultaneously. We've even gone over this before, although then it was more along the lines of: "can a single area spell hit both astral and physical targets".

[Yerameyahu]

How could that possibly supersede the exact rule in the spell targeting section that says 'yes, astrally perceiving definitely can cast at either'?

And it doesn't say that. You're ignoring the end of that sentence, for one thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Astral perception works just fine for most physical things. You can't use your physical senses at the same time; you can't 'physically see'. But you don't need to.

Now, there are definitely times when this matters. For one, glass is opaque to astral perception, so physical sight is the only way to go if there's glass there. This means you'd have to switch astral off, because you can't use physical sight while it's active. As you said, you can't sense both astrally and physically at once (except, of course, 'real' Dual-Natured's with physical senses).

[longbowrocks]

How could that possibly supersede the exact rule in the spell targeting section that says 'yes, astrally perceiving definitely can cast at either'?

Because it doesn't mention whether he has the choice of either simultaneously. This may seem like grasping at straws, but if we don't look at it that way, then there are two rules quite blatantly conflicting with one another.

And it doesn't say that. You're ignoring the end of that sentence, for one thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Astral perception works just fine for most physical things. You can't use your physical senses at the same time; you can't 'physically see'. But you don't need to.

I had the whole thing there in my first post quoting this, but I removed most of it in order to just get the important bits when I copied it into a new post since it no one appeared to have noticed it.
It says "almost everything", probably meaning more static things like trees, rocks, and buildings; not people, moving vehicles, and bullets.
In fact, it precisely states that these are things on the physical plane being reflected on the astral, and it has already been established that mundanes cannot be seen on the astral, only their auras. Thus, it isn't the same as seeing the physical and astral at the same time.

Now, there are definitely times when this matters. For one, glass is opaque to astral perception, so physical sight is the only way to go if there's glass there. This means you'd have to switch astral off, because you can't use physical sight while it's active. As you said, you can't see both astrally and physically at once.

Kinda responded to this above, but it feels rude to just leave part of your post hanging. The glass thing is true, but assuming you were targeting a person on the physical plane, you'd have to switch off astral perception anyway.

[Yerameyahu]

Not at all (and, you can't assume your conclusion as a premise in your argument—there's even a fancy Latin name for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

Because, guess: "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space." There are no two ways about this (yuk yuk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). It says 'astrally perceiving' and 'physical world'. It doesn't say, 'an astrally perceiving mage can *stop* astrally perceiving and then cast spells on the physical using his physical sense'. You're right, it does seem like grasping at straws to argue otherwise. It doesn't need to say 'simultaneously' because it specifically says both are options *while* astrally perceiving.

[DireRadiant]

Probably should read all the rules instead of selecting one or two instances and then basing your interpretation of magical targeting on them.

Start with the Targeting section in SR4A p, 183, The basic rules about targeting things with spells.

Final Paragraph is of interest.

"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence."

1. Magician not using Astral Perception, nor astrally projecting. "A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world."

2.Magician astrally projecting. "Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted)."

3. Magician astrally perceiving "An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. "

These are core rules, in the core section on targeting with spells.

While the first paragraph focuses on natural vision, and non electronic vision, there remains the question of what Assensing is. It's a Psychic sense, not one of the normal physical senses, and is covered elsewhere in the book. We also know from else where that "normal" senses do not work very well in astral space, Astral Perception, Assensing is used for targeting purposes. We can see the final paragraph of the targeting rules for spells covers these scenarios.

[Epicedion]

Because it doesn't mention whether he has the choice of either simultaneously. This may seem like grasping at straws, but if we don't look at it that way, then there are two rules quite blatantly conflicting with one another.

Actually, the only rule that matters is the one that says you can cast at either physical or astral targets while you're astrally perceiving.

You're writing in a whole other category of perception that doesn't exist, some sort of dual state where your astral perception is on but then you're switched over to view only the physical.

That category doesn't exist in the rules. You can either astrally perceive or not. When you turn on astral perception, you can cast at physical or astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. When you turn it off you can only cast at physical targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. When you astrally project, you can only cast at astral targets, as explicitly stated in the rules. There's nothing in between any two of those categories.

[longbowrocks]

this was a post, and will be a post. reading above posts now...

[Epicedion]

Good job Yerameyahu. Now we ave two conflicting sets of rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, your argument is specious.

Now, you can make a case for being unable to target things that you can't see with astral perception while your astral perception is switched on. I'm just not entirely certain what those would be.

[DireRadiant]

I'm not trying to be mean either, but I'm saying that this supersedes that.

One of the core rules of the magic system is "that which you cannot perceive, you cannot cast on". IIRC, we were arguing about what constitutes "perception" in this context based on the rules for magic.
However, the book is clearly saying that you cannot perceive on both planes simultaneously this case, and therefore you cannot cast on both planes simultaneously. We've even gone over this before, although then it was more along the lines of: "can a single area spell hit both astral and physical targets".

Just one thing. How does an eyeballess awakened being who can only astrally perceive, but is materialized cast a physical spell or use a physical power? Which is the vast majority of paracritters and all spirits. Regardless of the shifting perceptions rule, they all percieve astrally, and target physical spells and powers that affect the mundane plane?

That's if you are going to go the route of some other rule somewhere else overriding the base targeting rules commonly accepted meanings, you may want to consider all those poor spirits.

[Yerameyahu]

Things behind glass, Epicedion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Not that glass isn't all one-way in SR anyway.

[Epicedion]

Things behind glass, Epicedion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Not that glass isn't all one-way in SR anyway.

True, but that's just because the glass is astrally opaque. You can't see things behind walls, either, so that's not special. I was more considering things that literally don't have any astral presence, but I can't think of anything like that offhand.

[longbowrocks]

No, your argument is specious.

Now, you can make a case for being unable to target things that you can't see with astral perception while your astral perception is switched on. I'm just not entirely certain what those would be.

This is back to the original argument. You can't see a person's physical body when astral perception is turned on. You can see auras. You cannot target just an aura, so you can't target the person himself.
Assuming you can cast on both the physical plane and astral plane at once, you will first need to discern whether your target is inhabiting the physical or astral plane, since spells cannot be dual natured.

As for things that would be invisible on the astral plane, I can't think of anything either. Maybe a mana void, or its contents?