[X] My Assistant

[Whipstitch]

I had the whole thing there in my first post quoting this, but I removed most of it in order to just get the important bits when I copied it into a new post since it no one appeared to have noticed it.
It says "almost everything", probably meaning more static things like trees, rocks, and buildings; not people, moving vehicles, and bullets.

Actually, this particular statement is almost precisely backwards. According to books like Street Magic Astral Perception tends to be concentrated on living things first and foremost and what living things pay attention to second. Things with emotional resonance or that are frequently used by metahumans have a symbolic importance that makes them much easier to spot than say, a stray chunk of loose gravel.

[longbowrocks]

Actually, this particular statement is almost precisely backwards. According to books like Street Magic Astral Perception tends to be concentrated on living things first and foremost and what living things pay attention to second. Things with emotional resonance or that are frequently used by metahumans have a symbolic importance that makes them much easier to spot than say, a stray chunk of loose gravel.

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind. I guess I was basing that logic off the Fade from Dragon Age, since you can't see people on the astral plane, even though people are a major source of its makeup.

[Yerameyahu]

You cannot target just an aura

… when astrally projecting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

'night guys. I'll bug you about rules again tomorrow. Maybe in a different thread since we've hijacked this one completely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dez384]

It is also possible to eavesdrop on the noises, communications, and even smells of the physical world from the astral plane, but just like reading a physical book, the assensing character will perceive the emotional tone and impressions rather than the physical sensation.

When astrally perceiving, you do pick up data from the physical world, since everything casts a shadow, both living and nonliving things. It's like a colorblind person being able to distinguish between colors, not because he sees reds and blues, but because he can tell the difference in shades of brown or grey.

[sabs]

What's extra irritating, is that they imply that you can use astral senses to target people, the LOS Targeting rules specifically say that all visual modifiers apply when trying to target someone for a spell.

It's a pain in the ass. There's contradictions everywhere, and with 1 interpretations Ghouls cant' cast spells, in the other, Astral Sensing is like the super-awesome, why would you use anything else perception of win.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What's extra irritating, is that they imply that you can use astral senses to target people, the LOS Targeting rules specifically say that all visual modifiers apply when trying to target someone for a spell.

It's a pain in the ass. There's contradictions everywhere, and with 1 interpretations Ghouls cant' cast spells, in the other, Astral Sensing is like the super-awesome, why would you use anything else perception of win.

Never really had any issues with it personally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dez384]

What's extra irritating, is that they imply that you can use astral senses to target people, the LOS Targeting rules specifically say that all visual modifiers apply when trying to target someone for a spell.

It's a pain in the ass. There's contradictions everywhere, and with 1 interpretations Ghouls cant' cast spells, in the other, Astral Sensing is like the super-awesome, why would you use anything else perception of win.

This is why:

While this makes astral perception advantageous in some cases, it is not always a boon. Because illumination in the astral plane is also cast from the auras of living and magical things, what might be a normally visible scene in the physical world can be crowded with the cascading glow of many auras in astral space. With too many auras overlapping in one space, discerning one particular astral form, aura, or shadow can become very difficult.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah: physical vision uses physical Visibility mods, astral perception uses Astral Visibility mods.

[sabs]

Where are these Astral Visibility mods (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I've never seen one in any of the books I've read.

[Loch]

I believe you can find them in Street Magic, p. 114

[sabs]

so modifiers for a key core ability are in a splat book? That's.. awesome.

[Yerameyahu]

It's the core magic book, actually, I find it hard to belief you've never read it. In 'any of the books' you *have* read… there are only like 6 or so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I mean, if you're not using Street Magic, you're not even using Background Count, facrissake.

Several of the 'physical' modifiers also apply to Astral, AFAIK: Distracted -2, Interference -2, possibly the distance mods, etc. (and some of the bonuses, probably).

[sabs]

Street Magic's the one main book I haven't read cover to cover :0
Mostly cause I hate playing Magic characters.

[Yerameyahu]

I think Cover used to apply to spellcasting as a visibility-style penalty, although they revamped the Cover rules later.

Astral Perception *is* a power. It's a benefit, and it should be beneficial. It does have its own unique limitations (LOS limits it versus hearing, for example), including the fact that you're a sitting target on the astral. Magic has always been the counter to magic, so send a random spirit to bother the mage if his super-vision is too annoying.

[Dez384]

I believe you can find them in Street Magic, p. 114

Yes, the page I've been quoting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think Cover used to apply to spellcasting as a visibility-style penalty, although they revamped the Cover rules later.

Astral Perception *is* a power. It's a benefit, and it should be beneficial. It does have its own unique limitations (LOS limits it versus hearing, for example), including the fact that you're a sitting target on the astral. Magic has always been the counter to magic, so send a random spirit to bother the mage if his super-vision is too annoying.

Using Magic to Counter Magic... Now that is a revolutionary concept... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

It does have its own unique limitations (LOS limits it versus hearing, for example)

This limitation however is not explicitly stated. Vision is only used as an analog, since none of us has actually experienced astral perception. There are also characters who experience it more like other senses (especially blind people).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This limitation however is not explicitly stated. Vision is only used as an analog, since none of us has actually experienced astral perception. There are also characters who experience it more like other senses (especially blind people).

Exactly... Apparently, though, many people have latched onto this idea and stick with it. It does not really help that Astral Visibility Modifiers, and some of the conditions of Normal Visibility Modifiers, affects the Assensing Test.

At that point, it quickly becomes written in stone that Astral Perception is "Sight" for all intents and purposes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Mardrax]

Exactly... Apparently, though, many people have latched onto this idea and stick with it. It does not really help that Astral Visibility Modifiers, and some of the conditions of Normal Visibility Modifiers, affects the Assensing Test.

At that point, it quickly becomes written in stone that Astral Perception is "Sight" for all intents and purposes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

This is why I use a fair ammount of synethesia to describe Astral sensing. It helps people get out of the sight framework a bit. But it's still rough, either way.

[Yerameyahu]

The LOS limits of astral sense *are* explicitly stated. They go on and on about how things are astrally-opaque.

That's always been the central issue with astral sense in SR4: it's *not* sight, but it definitely has LOS limits. It definitely doesn't work through walls (or glass), like physical hearing, or around corners, like physical smell.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The LOS limits of astral sense *are* explicitly stated. They go on and on about how things are astrally-opaque.

That's always been the central issue with astral sense in SR4: it's *not* sight, but it definitely has LOS limits. It definitely doesn't work through walls (or glass), like physical hearing, or around corners, like physical smell.

No Doubt, this is very true. But since Blind People can use Astral Perception, it is NOT sight, as you indicated above. As was said earlier, this is just the closest thing that we, as humans, can relate to. Humans do not typically target by Hearing or Smell, so ascribing a correspondence to them is rather pointless, but since Astral Perception does not employ actual Sight as a sense, it causes some issues in the verisimilitude department.

It is an interesting Connundrum. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't realize we were only talking about targeting; that's a pity, because you use your perception for a lot more than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I only wanted to reiterate that, whatever astral sense is, it has LOS limits. We know that for sure, 100%. It is a sense that works in all directions, but stops when it 'hits' any object (and is impeded by things like FAB 'smoke', some BC, etc.).

The simplest concept, for me, is a simplistic 'magic active sonar'. I know there's no ping, but it's basically omni-directional + direct LOS. I just wish we knew what the max range was. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I didn't realize we were only talking about targeting; that's a pity, because you use your perception for a lot more than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I only wanted to reiterate that, whatever astral sense is, it has LOS limits. We know that for sure, 100%. It is a sense that works in all directions, but stops when it 'hits' any object (and is impeded by things like FAB 'smoke', some BC, etc.).

The simplest concept, for me, is a simplistic 'magic active sonar'. I know there's no ping, but it's basically omni-directional + direct LOS. I just wish we knew what the max range was. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, I know... Perception is a valuable thing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) AS for the LOS Limits, well, you have to use something for a baseline, and Sight is what we use for such things. Not a perfect solution. I guess you could design something that would work, but we would have no real concept of functionality for a sense that is outside of our current purview. As well, it may introduce some insanities to what is a fairly simple concept. In the end, I am content to use "Sight" as the paradigm, as given in the books, even if it is not really "Sight."

Well, the maximum range for LOS is... LOS... IF you can "see them" then they are inside of your LOS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Nath]

Regarding the "omni-directional" aspect of Astral Sight, I can't help thinking that if the authors were thinking it that way, they would have written down somewhere that assensing mages and adepts, spirits, ghouls and dual-natured entities at large can not be taken by surprise under nearly any circumstance.