PC are too strong, what to do ? Options

[Dez384]

Regarding the "omni-directional" aspect of Astral Sight, I can't help thinking that if the authors were thinking it that way, they would have written down somewhere that assensing mages and adepts, spirits, ghouls and dual-natured entities at large can not be taken by surprise under nearly any circumstance.

Eyeband gives you 360 degree vision, but -2 to perception tests. So if anything, omnidirectional 'sight' would hinder your perception.

[Halflife]

I would assume that your Astral Sight would be similar to whatever your brain was used to processing. People tend to focus in a particular area of their sight even though they have a much wider cone of vision. I would assume the same would apply Astrally. If you are used to looking in only one direction at once due to your brain wiring you wouldn't be able to perceive omnidirectionally without giving yourself major issues.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eyeband gives you 360 degree vision, but -2 to perception tests. So if anything, omnidirectional 'sight' would hinder your perception.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mardrax]

Since Shadowrun doesn't know a system of facing, any and all perception is omnidirectional.

[Yerameyahu]

Except it's magic. All we know is that the *eyeband* has that penalty… and that astral perception *probably* doesn't, or they'd have mentioned it. Astral perception does have that -2 to physical activities penalty; seems fair. (As we know, the eyeband is a worthless 'flavor' item. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The SURGE version similarly mentions nothing about surprise, or indeed any crunch use at all for this 'bonus'.)

Nath, the book basically has no rules for 'where you're looking' with even normal vision (there's the Distracted -2 that I mentioned earlier). What makes you think it makes you 'immune to surprise'? Hell, the surprise rules barely mention anything like a 'didn't see them' requirement; they're very (almost uselessly, for me) abstract.

[Dez384]

Since Shadowrun doesn't know a system of facing, any and all perception is omnidirectional.

Perception is omni-directional in the real world, just not all of our senses. Touch is omnidirectional since skin is all over our body. Smell and taste have preferred sectors of sense, but can receive data from any direction. Since astral perception is a psychic sense that is interpreted via regular senses, it too would be omnidirectional.

[Halflife]

That isn't strictly true. If you are looking at something you must be focused on it. Therefore you are distracted and not observing other directions (and suffer a dice pool modifier to Perception). The only time you are actually observing omnidirectionally is when you take the observe in detail action since that is when you are not distracted by being focused on something.

[Yerameyahu]

Just to be picky: isn't Observe in Detail *exactly* when you're focused on something? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But, being distracted (-2) isn't the same as literally being unable to sense in all directions. It's a (moderate/small) penalty, that's all.

In any case, yes: no senses in SR4 have 'facing' rules, because all perception is abstract. Use the existing penalties as appropriate.

[Halflife]

From the name you would think so. The point was more to illustrate that you are actually looking at things and not in fact perceiving it all perfectly simultaneously.

[Nath]

Nath, the book basically has no rules for 'where you're looking' with even normal vision (there's the Distracted -2 that I mentioned earlier). What makes you think it makes you 'immune to surprise'? Hell, the surprise rules barely mention anything like a 'didn't see them' requirement; they're very (almost uselessly, for me) abstract.

Shadowrun 20th Anniversary introduced the "Defender unaware of attack" Defense Modifier, resulting in no defense roll, independently from Surprise effect. The Modifier description reads "If the defender is unaware of the attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat."

[Dez384]

It is assumed that if a defender is already in combat, he is paying attention to his surrounding.

[Halflife]

I know I would be

[Dez384]

I know I would be

The sympathetic nervous system has already been initialized.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, Nath, but that's all GM-fiat. It relies on the player admitting that he's looking elsewhere, or the GM deciding it. It's also not a Surprise, which is a wonky Initiative comparison test. I guess you meant 'surprise situation' instead of 'SR4 Surprise test', sorry for my confusion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that 360 Vision, Eyeband, or Astral Perception are all good (if fluffy) arguments the ambush-ee can use to argue with the GM about it.

[Dez384]

It isn't that the character doesn't necessarily 'see' or 'perceive' the assailant; it is that they aren't expecting the attack. Whether that is a teammate stabbing them with a shiv or a masseuse trying to snap their neck during a massage.

[capt.pantsless]

All that said, if your PC's are getting too powerful, it's perfectly appropriate to have some bad-guys sneak-up on them and sucker-punch them. While the PC's should get a perception check to sense the attack, even if coming from behind, there's nothing said that the GM can't roll it in secret. (which is another reason why you should write-down a few key numbers from the PC's sheets)

This is especially great if you're distracting both the real-life players and the PC's in-game with something interesting. Negotiating with a fence, for example.

[ Spoiler ]

And yes, I am trying to re-rail this thread.

[Halflife]

It isn't that the character doesn't necessarily 'see' or 'perceive' the assailant; it is that they aren't expecting the attack. Whether that is a teammate stabbing them with a shiv or a masseuse trying to snap their neck during a massage.

Or getting shelled while you are inside a tent

[Udoshi]

Eyeband gives you 360 degree vision, but -2 to perception tests. So if anything, omnidirectional 'sight' would hinder your perception.

Intertial Triggers fix this problem. For hella cheap, too. Go arsenal!

[Yerameyahu]

… huh?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Intertial Triggers fix this problem. For hella cheap, too. Go arsenal!

There seems to be some confusion about your post Udoshi. Would you mind clarifying how Inertial Triggers apply to Perception. Because, apparently, I am not seeing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Udoshi]

There seems to be some confusion about your post Udoshi. Would you mind clarifying how Inertial Triggers apply to Perception. Because, apparently, I am not seeing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

They're able to automatically change node settings when they detect movement.
Headband perception penalties only apply when the user is in motion.

So for 25 nuyen, you get the best of both worlds. Full coverage when you're not moving, no penalties when you are.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They're able to automatically change node settings when they detect movement.
Headband perception penalties only apply when the user is in motion.

So for 25 nuyen, you get the best of both worlds. Full coverage when you're not moving, no penalties when you are.

So, how does changing your "node settings" remove the penalties for movement? I still don't see that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) At best, it just shuts off 360 degree sight. It is more a security device, best used as a trigger for explosives or other such nastiness.

[James McMurray]

So, how does changing your "node settings" remove the penalties for movement? I still don't see that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) At best, it just shuts off 360 degree sight. It is more a security device, best used as a trigger for explosives or other such nastiness.

Eyeband gives a -2 when using 360 degree vision and in motion. It gives no penalties when you stop moving or when in "normal vision" mode. Use the inertial trigger to put the eyeband in 360 mode when you're not moving and in normal mode when you are. Voila!

[Yerameyahu]

Oh. Jeez. I dunno if I'd call it fixing the problem, because you're still losing the whole point of having the eyeband. Also, considering how often you're in motion, that amounts to an Observe in Detail. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mardrax]

You still get the increased slots for the headband though.