[X] My Assistant

[Dakka Dakka]

Also, control actions and control thoughts take simple actions to give commands, and the victim can act normally when not being commanded. Remember that they are sustained spells, so shooting the mage can disrupt the control by disrupting the spell.

The book does not say what the victim can or can't do when he is not carrying out an order.If he could operate freely, the spell would be totally useless as everyone would either cry mindrape or call for backup possibly even with a description or videofeed who the caster was

And for the next-biggest gun, the social adept, remember that, unlike the spells mentioned above, social skills are not mind control.

QFT

[longbowrocks]

That would be hilarious.
You're ordered to shoot your friend, so you do. It just so happens you have more initiative passes than the mage, so you then go stabilize your friend, heal him a bit, and shoot the mage in the head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[CanRay]

Or a Mystical Adept that has the same amount of IPs.

*Shakes Head* That was one broken Pixie!

[Fortinbras]

Why do I get the feeling I saw that in a Joss Whedon script?

[IKerensky]

Interesting suggestion all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To reply a few :

Use different opposition than pure fight. I do, the trick is that the game wont be fun without some fights, and thoses fight tend not to be fun.

Use gangers rolling 8 dices outnumbering PC 3 to 1 in a ambush position : could get boring after the few first times. I tend to outnumber players and use covers but it always work both way. Covers mean it is not open ground and thus the number advantage is lessened. PC are stronger than NPC and thus less hindered than them by lightning and covers, they are also usually more prepared than mere gangers against that. Flare is a one trick pony that wont work every fight. And I find that gangers rolling 8 dices is quite a lot, except if you consider all your gangers to have military training in weapons and smartlink.

Another element is that the Shadowrunners are usually the ones initiating the combat by their action. They could fall into a trap or an ambush but that doesnt sound like thoses are the usual combat condition for them.

About magic, I appreciate the comment on abusing controling magic. The trick is that, if the players are intelligent enough not to make it too much obvious there is not so much of a downside. But in this case it only show that it work correctly.

I feel the drain is far too small for players that usually have their Resist Drain Pool maxed from the start. Combat dont last very long and recuperation between combat is fairly short, no need to use magic, mundane cure for Stun work very well.

About Spirits, obviously there is no other way than to add "unspoken" rules or ressort to munchkinism against munchkinism. I can roll them over with nearly unlimited number of Spirits coming from security command but that wont solve the true problem : that, by the Rules As Written, mages can summon/control far too many spirits, far too much potent. the only limit is not a rule but a mere suggestion that spirit could use Edge to resist (with no real indication of when he should do so) I would have prefered a real rules with real setting.

[jizo]

This article is from the point of view of someone who does not have any uber 150-200+ post char gen characters so keep the viewpoint in mind when you read it.
p 188 sr4a
A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any
given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute.
Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total.

how high of charisma do they have, how powerful of spirits are they summoning, if they are lower force, full auto bursts from tripoded assault rifles will do them in quite quickly, at higher force levels stun bolts can still do them in. As a mage can summon only one unbound spirit at a time and the spirits are limited to the magic level of the caster for the drain to be stun, I don't see how a single force 6 spirit can utterly ruin a mid-high level facility's day especially if there are mages on call from higher up (astral speed run 5k/ combat turn) From Belleville to Tacoma is about 50km or so. it would then theoretically take 1 min for a mage in astral to move from downtown/high security main buildings to an outlying firm part of the business that stated they were under heavy magical attack.

Spirits are relatively expensive to bind in any quantity. especially if the spirit is causing physical drain. In street magic the authors reference the fact that spirits dislike being bound by people with lower magic than themselves*, and given that statement, as a GM if the players are overusing spirits the next time they attempt to bind a force 6-8+ spirit when you are already rolling 12-16 dice add the spirits edge to the roll and watch the player cry as they now have to resist TWICE the hits of the spirit which could easily cause 12-16p drain, if you want to warn them. Use a spirit of less than their magic attribute first just to show them how much it can hurt them, to urge caution, especially as there is no way to heal magical drain damage aside from first aid/hospitals, and first aid gets a penalty due to the fact they are a magician
sr4a p.178
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such
as sorcery or spirit powers.

a decent ward around the guard booth would come as an unwelcome surprise for someone trying to mind control the guards to get the gate open as a ward adds dice to the willpower test to resist the magic in the first place as well as alerting the mage who set the ward that something is up. (From what I understand)
* I am unsure where I saw this, so I can not be certain that I am not just misremembering it

[Sengir]

Flare Comp does not have to be electronic. It can be optical as well...
As for if they are electronic, he is not using them to TARGET a spell... he is using it as a defensive measure against brighht light.

So what? The flare comp glasses have to cover his eyes, otherwise they'd be fairly useless. Which means our mage is watching his target through an electronic device, which means he can't cast on it, just like he can't cast via a CCTV feed.

[Wesley Street]

Don't, just don't. With 300 BP the characters can't even have average attributes (average costs 160 BP which is illegal at that point value). I doubt it will be fun for your players to play such cripples.
Varied obstactles especially those that can't be shot is a good idea.

I call BS to this post. I just finished a 300BP game and my players had a grand old time.

[Kyrel]

So what? The flare comp glasses have to cover his eyes, otherwise they'd be fairly useless. Which means our mage is watching his target through an electronic device, which means he can't cast on it, just like he can't cast via a CCTV feed.

I unfortunately have to agree with this. A mage can't use any form of non-optical vision enhancement.

[Dakka Dakka]

So what? The flare comp glasses have to cover his eyes, otherwise they'd be fairly useless. Which means our mage is watching his target through an electronic device, which means he can't cast on it, just like he can't cast via a CCTV feed.

Sunglasses are the easiest way of glare compensation. Those needn't be electronic. Furthermore where does it say that as soon as Flare compensation is engaged the user views a video feed? The glasses' lenses are simply made less translucent by use of electronics. You are perceiving nothing electronically.

If a spell originated from the eyes, or the GM just wants to be a jerk you would have problems with indirect combat spells though. But that would be the case for simple corrective lenses as well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not a war game, CanRay. It's crazy that there's a skill for leading soldiers, but not one for simple persuasion… and that the latter gets rolled up into the former.

I actually see Persuasion as a part of Negotiation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So what? The flare comp glasses have to cover his eyes, otherwise they'd be fairly useless. Which means our mage is watching his target through an electronic device, which means he can't cast on it, just like he can't cast via a CCTV feed.

Whatever Sengir... That Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, as Dakka Dakka has pointed out above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course, You are free to say that Flare Compensation interferes with Magic. I do not agree with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

So what? The flare comp glasses have to cover his eyes, otherwise they'd be fairly useless. Which means our mage is watching his target through an electronic device, which means he can't cast on it, just like he can't cast via a CCTV feed.

Any Shadowrunner mage without a little bit of cyber is, IMO, a target waiting to get mauled.

My combat medic mage has 1.995 points of cyber/bio. His cybereyes have thermo, low light, Vision Enhancement, smartlink... and yes Flare Comp.

[James McMurray]

Use gangers rolling 8 dices outnumbering PC 3 to 1 in a ambush position : could get boring after the few first times. I tend to outnumber players and use covers but it always work both way. Covers mean it is not open ground and thus the number advantage is lessened. PC are stronger than NPC and thus less hindered than them by lightning and covers, they are also usually more prepared than mere gangers against that. Flare is a one trick pony that wont work every fight. And I find that gangers rolling 8 dices is quite a lot, except if you consider all your gangers to have military training in weapons and smartlink.

The example was gangers. It can be anything. The important part is that they have the numbers needed to rapidly lower dodge pools and the damage capability to back that up.

8 dice for a grunt isn't a big stretch. The gangers in the core book have 6 dice while the police and corporate security guards have 7. Also, you don't need 8 dice. Once someone's dodge pool is at 0 three dice is plenty to hurt most people.

Another element is that the Shadowrunners are usually the ones initiating the combat by their action. They could fall into a trap or an ambush but that doesnt sound like thoses are the usual combat condition for them.

If the secure facility is designed such that there's one way in and one way out then it's easy for the first triggered alarm to cause a buildup of guards outside rather than a stream of them coming down the hallway in a conga line of death.

About magic, I appreciate the comment on abusing controling magic. The trick is that, if the players are intelligent enough not to make it too much obvious there is not so much of a downside. But in this case it only show that it work correctly.

There is a threshold for noticing spellcasting. Unless they put the Force very low (and limit their hits) then they're going to have a hard time preventing it from being noticed.

I feel the drain is far too small for players that usually have their Resist Drain Pool maxed from the start. Combat dont last very long and recuperation between combat is fairly short, no need to use magic, mundane cure for Stun work very well.

If drain were much higher everyone would just shoot guns. Combat spells have to be usable, and if they knock you out for trying then they're no longer usable.

About Spirits, obviously there is no other way than to add "unspoken" rules or ressort to munchkinism against munchkinism. I can roll them over with nearly unlimited number of Spirits coming from security command but that wont solve the true problem : that, by the Rules As Written, mages can summon/control far too many spirits, far too much potent. the only limit is not a rule but a mere suggestion that spirit could use Edge to resist (with no real indication of when he should do so) I would have prefered a real rules with real setting.

Summoning is one at a time. Binding costs money (500 x Force). High force spirits (the only ones that are any real trouble to security forces) cost a good deal of money and could even resist the summoning with their Force x 2 dice. Likewise having a bunch of bound spirits on hand could rack up some hefty dice pool penalties (-2 per spirit but only when the situation warrants it).

How many spirits, and how many services each, does the mage typically have? Does he have nothing else to spend his cash on?

[Sengir]

Sunglasses are the easiest way of glare compensation.

Uh yes, sunglasses against strobe lights...then again, I've seen people use surgical gloves when welding, which is about the same level of "protection"

[DireRadiant]

"Line of Sight" is an interesting concept which can cloud some of issues surrounding how magic interacts between the caster and the target.

For reference you'll want to look at p. 183 in SR4A
"The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between
caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana
of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the
basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch. Line
of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through
transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting
modifiers. As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing
device or other technological rendering of the target does not
establish the necessary link."

In gaming terms I would suggest considering "LOS" as a concept primarily from the POV of an outside observer(Classically the GM, or in table top war games, the Referee). The question to be answered is, "Is there a clear line between the caster and the target?" or even better, "Can the Caster perceive the Target?"

Why did I use the word "Perceive"?

Sight is only one means of perception. Assensing is not sight, but awakened beings can all use assensing for targeting. (Awakened creatures without eyeballs can Assense.... spirits, ghouls, etc...)

At this point we have two possible modes for the transfer of magic between caster and target based on the current arguments.

Eyeball Theory
Where the mages eyes are key, and sunglasses and contact lenses will block targeting and casting, and possibly even prevent assensing.

Mystic Link Theory
Both sight and Assensing can be used by the Caster to establish the "Mystic Link", at which point the magical energies are released by the Caster and effect the Target. Physical and Mana spells and powers represent the different ways in which the magical energy is released.

You choose how you want to play, but I generally find the Eyeball Theory at odds with the vast majority of the SR4 game rules and practices.

On a side note I've always wondered if it would be an interesting Quality to have where Hearing could be used as a perceiving sense for establishing the Mystic Link.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Uh yes, sunglasses against strobe lights...then again, I've seen people use surgical gloves when welding, which is about the same level of "protection"

Its the 2070's Sengir... The Sunglasses of that Era will not be the sunglasses of ours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

According to the FAQ, you *can* use hearing… or even smell. No, it doesn't really make any sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (Couldn't resist.)

[Dakka Dakka]

Eyeball Theory
Where the mages eyes are key, and sunglasses and contact lenses will block targeting and casting, and possibly even prevent assensing.

Just to reiterate. This only applies to indirect combat spells. All other spells can be cast through any transparent medium. If photons travel from the target to the eye of the caster it works.

According to the FAQ, you *can* use hearing… or even smell. No, it doesn't really make any sense.

Yup and the last sentence applies to most of the FAQ. Couldn't resist either.

[sabs]

Well, what's even more irritating, if you're assessing with hearing, the normal visibility and lighting modifiers apply. Which means btw, if it's total darkness, you get a -6 to your targeting roll, even though you're using your sense of smell.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, what's even more irritating, if you're assessing with hearing, the normal visibility and lighting modifiers apply. Which means btw, if it's total darkness, you get a -6 to your targeting roll, even though you're using your sense of smell.

Only if your GM is being stubborn about that. Hearing and/or Smell does not care about Lighting, and Common Sense says that Darkness would not apply for such things, though ambient environmentals will add their own penalties, of course. Also, Your Threshold is likely higher to "perceive" something with Hearing or Smell. And unless you have Aural/Olfaction Boosts (or have exceptional Senses), it is unlikely that you will have a Sense that is even capable of true targeting capabilities. Of course, there is 'ware that can help with this dilemma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still does not make any sense though...

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, what's even more irritating, if you're assessing with hearing, the normal visibility and lighting modifiers apply. Which means btw, if it's total darkness, you get a -6 to your targeting roll, even though you're using your sense of smell.

No. You can never assense with any of your normal senses. Astral Perception is an additional psychic sense. Even permanently dual-natured critters cannot do that, even though they perceive both planes simultaneously. Assensing always uses that other sense.

[sabs]

It's an other sense where lighting and sight modifiers apply. Which is the weird part.

[Ascalaphus]

Persuasion would be a bit of a catch-all social skill;
Con: persuading people to believe something
Negotiation: persuading people to agree to a deal with favorable terms
Etiquette: persuading people you belong and that you're pleasant company
Leadership: persuading the people to follow your lead.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Persuasion would be a bit of a catch-all social skill;
Con: persuading people to believe something
Negotiation: persuading people to agree to a deal with favorable terms
Etiquette: persuading people you belong and that you're pleasant company
Leadership: persuading the people to follow your lead.

Yeah, I can buy that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)