[X] My Assistant

[LukeZ]

If a Mage summons a Spirit, will the spirit appear at the end of the complex action?
Is it possible for a Mage in the Astral Plane to Summon a Spirit?

[Loch]

A spirit appears during the complex action used to summon it, and sticks around until the next sunrise/sunset or until it runs out of services, whichever comes first. Alternatively, a magician can bind a spirit for more long-term engagements.

You can summon spirits regardless of Astral/meatspace condition. You can even do it in VR (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Well. You can do it while *using* VR, which is not really the same thing. I'd give the distraction penalty, too.

[LukeZ]

A spirit appears during the complex action used to summon it, and sticks around until the next sunrise/sunset or until it runs out of services, whichever comes first. Alternatively, a magician can bind a spirit for more long-term engagements.

You can summon spirits regardless of Astral/meatspace condition. You can even do it in VR (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

So you (a Mage) can follow a physical target while in Astral Plane, then summon a Fire Elemental, ask him to materialize and blast the target? (Repeat until the target is destroyed?)

[Loch]

So you (a Mage) can follow a physical target while in Astral Plane, then summon a Fire Elemental, ask him to materialize and blast the target? (Repeat until the target is destroyed?)

As I understand it, yes.

Standard caveats of force, drain and background count apply as normal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dez384]

Seems pretty overpowered... until you remember what could be lurking around the astral plane (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[LukeZ]

Seems pretty overpowered... until you remember what could be lurking around the astral plane (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Yes, but you don't need to remain in the Astral Plane for too long to do this "trick"... it seems WAY too powerful (without taking in account the fact that the right mage could summon a spirit with the Possession power instead of the Materialize...)

[Bigity]

It's why mages are scary and why smart people find wards to hide behind. Isn't all drain on the astral physical as well? Or am I totally dreaming up something there away from my pdfs.


EDIT: I went to the other computer. A quick glance through SR4A says nothing about drain while projecting being any different so I guess that was an old version or I'm nuts.

[Dez384]

Yes, but you don't need to remain in the Astral Plane for too long to do this "trick"... it seems WAY too powerful (without taking in account the fact that the right mage could summon a spirit with the Possession power instead of the Materialize...)

There is also no guarantee that the target can be taken out by a single spirit. Obviously a common wage slave would be deader than a doornail, but anyone who is worth having a hit put on them is bound to have magic countermeasures.

[Yerameyahu]

… You realize you can already send a spirit to go blast someone on its own, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Magus]

But that is only a BOUND spirit that has remote task, a summoned spirit does not get the same tasks a bound spirit does. If I remember correctly, AFBATM.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, you're probably right. Sorry, I'm not good at the magic rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But surely the mage can already do it from extreme visual range? It seems like basically the same thing. It does sound like a pretty good trick for an astral *projecting* mage, but he's got his own problems (as others mentioned), and he definitely does have to remain in the astral for long enough to be subject to those problems (even if he does the astral version of a drive-by). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[phlapjack77]

But that is only a BOUND spirit that has remote task, a summoned spirit does not get the same tasks a bound spirit does. If I remember correctly, AFBATM.

Ah, you're probably right. Sorry, I'm not good at the magic rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But surely the mage can already do it from extreme visual range? It seems like basically the same thing. It does sound like a pretty good trick for an astral *projecting* mage, but he's got his own problems (as others mentioned), and he definitely does have to remain in the astral for long enough to be subject to those problems (even if he does the astral version of a drive-by). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Summoned spirits can be commanded to do a remote task. That forfeits all other services owed, but hey...

So yeah, I think the idea that started this thread isn't really overpowered over a normal mage / summoning situation.

[Epicedion]

Indeed, with remote services, the only difference between a bound and unbound spirit is that unbound spirits don't have to come back. Bound spirits still do.

[Fortinbras]

Don't forget that Lone Star has mages of their own who can Assense the spirit that killed the guy and track it back to you.
It's much like you can snipe someone from two miles away, but someone probably saw you do it.
Or wait in the shadows and slit somebody's throat.
Or kick in a door and blast someone with a shotgun.
Or plant a bomb in someone's basement.

[LukeZ]

Don't forget that Lone Star has mages of their own who can Assense the spirit that killed the guy and track it back to you.
It's much like you can snipe someone from two miles away, but someone probably saw you do it.
Or wait in the shadows and slit somebody's throat.
Or kick in a door and blast someone with a shotgun.
Or plant a bomb in someone's basement.

Yes, but... if you (without active spells or active magic items) go astral, find your target, summon a spirit to attack him, banish the spirit (or simply the task was the last) and go away, you cannot be traced, right?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but... if you (without active spells or active magic items) go astral, find your target, summon a spirit to attack him, banish the spirit (or simply the task was the last) and go away, you cannot be traced, right?

Spirit leaves an astral signature...
Spirits astral signature is tied to you if you are the summoner...
LS/KE Arrives on scene....
Assenses the situation...
Finds Signature...
Traces it back, eventually to you...
Tracked and Caught... all because you thought that your trick was untraceable....

There is ALWAYS a counter for any given scenario. You just have to find it.

[pbangarth]

So just wipe the astral signature before you go home. See page 192 of SR4A. If the few combat turns it takes to wipe an astral signature are too long, or if your GM wants to make things more difficult, then eventually the Cleansing metamagic should do the trick. See page 55 of Street Magic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So just wipe the astral signature before you go home. See page 192 of SR4A. If the few combat turns it takes to wipe an astral signature are too long, or if your GM wants to make things more difficult, then eventually the Cleansing metamagic should do the trick. See page 55 of Street Magic.

Indeed... There are things you can do, to be sure. Not saying that you are screwed here. Just pointing out that there are always clues. There is no such thing as a perfect crime.

As for Wiping Signatures/Cleansing Signatures. I cannot tell you how often that gets forgotten in the heat of the moment. More often than not in fact. I cannot tell you how many times one of the mages in our party has forgotten that tiny little step. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[LukeZ]

So just wipe the astral signature before you go home. See page 192 of SR4A. If the few combat turns it takes to wipe an astral signature are too long, or if your GM wants to make things more difficult, then eventually the Cleansing metamagic should do the trick. See page 55 of Street Magic.

Exactly...
And this is the perfect crime.

[CanRay]

Murky Link is also a handy thing to have, even if you're not a magician.

And remember, children, never summon anything bigger than your head!

Wait, power and size are not congruent. Never mind.

[Yerameyahu]

How big can a potato be? Only the potato knows. (Zen Koan Unlocked!)

[Dakka Dakka]

Spirit leaves an astral signature...
Spirits astral signature is tied to you if you are the summoner...

No. The spirit leaves its Signature. That signature is not linked to the summoner. There is a Spirit-Summoner Link only as long as the spirit is in your service.
There is no perceivable connection between an astral signature and the producer of that signature just as there is no connection between a fingerprint and a person. You have to make that person produce another print to compare.

What Law Enforcement could do is take the spirits signature and go on a mataplanar quest to find that spirit and ask/summon and order it to tell who his master was. This however only works, if summonable spirits exist when they are not summoned. The Books have never confirmed or denied this. Those spirits may just as well be products of the mage's mind.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No. The spirit leaves its Signature. That signature is not linked to the summoner. There is a Spirit-Summoner Link only as long as the spirit is in your service.

Which was Implied by the chain of events, per the example previously.

There is no perceivable connection between an astral signature and the producer of that signature just as there is no connection between a fingerprint and a person. You have to make that person produce another print to compare.

What Law Enforcement could do is take the spirits signature and go on a mataplanar quest to find that spirit and ask/summon and order it to tell who his master was. This however only works, if summonable spirits exist when they are not summoned. The Books have never confirmed or denied this. Those spirits may just as well be products of the mage's mind.

You are free to believe this, but it is false. To have a Metaplanar Quest to track down a Spirit in the Metaplanes, that Spirit actually has to exist. Pretty Simple Math...

[Irion]

Yes, the hole thing with traveling in the astral fucks up the balance quite good.

There is also no guarantee that the target can be taken out by a single spirit. Obviously a common wage slave would be deader than a doornail, but anyone who is worth having a hit put on them is bound to have magic countermeasures.

Yes, but mostly they are not helping much.
Having a force 8 Spirit of man blowing up the targets head with a powerbolt is all that is needed.