[X] My Assistant

[Sephiroth]

So that's 1 simple to aim + 1 free to center + 1 free to call shot + 1 simple to attack = 2 simple, 2 free actions, which will take more than 1 IP.

False false false false false. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Taking aim when calling a shot is totally unnecessary.

[Epicedion]

So that's 1 simple to aim + 1 free to center + 1 free to call shot + 1 simple to attack = 2 simple, 2 free actions, which will take more than 1 IP.

If you take aim in your first IP, and call the shot as a simple instead in your second IP, then you can do it, provided the target doesn't move.

You don't have to aim:

A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.

[longbowrocks]

I thought we discussed this a few threads ago. Weren't you one of the people to shoot down the guy who suggested that Called shots only required a free action?

Going by this:
"A character can aim (see Take Aim, p. 148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack."

In other words, a character can spend a simple action to take aim, then a free action to call the shot.

*
"A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack."
ah, forgot about that.

[Machiavelli]

And again...the old topic "magic users are too powerful". And please take note: we are in the topic "are adepts nerfed". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) MUAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I guess I just don't see how that's a problem or unfair, or whatever.

Yeah, me neither, and I like Adepts... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, remember the PP instead of metamagic is an optional rule. If your GM opts out and chooses not to use that, then you're stuck with initiating, running out of metamagics, and/or not having enough karma to initiate again.

In that circumstance, do people still feel they're fairly balanced with the increased magic cost? RAW without optional rules?

I DO feel it is balanced with the Increased Magic Cost. Increasing your Magic should not be something that is done overnight. RAW without Optional Rules Indeed. We have a couple of GM's for our Table. Some use the optional rule, others do not. It's all good. I also have yet to run out of Metamagics for the Adept. There are as many Metamagics for the Adept (or very close to it anyways) as there are for the Magician, and some of them can be taken multiple times.

With the advent of the Way of the Adept. I expect (or at least hope) to see more diverse Adepts in the future as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

Call a Shot
A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.

A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.

Called Shots do not have to be followed by a take aim. But certainly it can be.
So assuming the weapon is already 'ready'. It would be
Call Shot (free), Centering (free), fire weapon (simple) That's not terrible.

[longbowrocks]

Well, you would end up using your entire Action Phase since one of those free actions would have to be downgraded to a simple action. I miss D&D.

Actually, I don't even see any rules for trading actions, so if your GM was being ornery, he could just rule it impossible.

[sabs]

Simple Actions
A Simple Action is one step more complicated than a Free Action and requires a bit more concentration to attempt. Only a few Simple Actions, however, require a Success Test to accomplish.
Simple Actions can only be taken on a character’s Action Phase. During his Action Phase, a character may take up to two Simple Actions or one Complex Action. An extra Free Action may be taken in place of a Simple Action (so the character would get two Free Actions and one Simple Action, or three Free Actions, instead of one Free and two Simple Actions).

Page 147 SR4A
So he could, but then he's being a complete dick whose not following the rules.

[longbowrocks]

Alrighty then.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Alrighty then.

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

My PDF Search-Foo is strong.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My PDF Search-Foo is strong.

Indeed it is... May you never miss a keystroke... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

I agree, spellcasters needed to be nerfed. However unlike a mage, adepts pretty much only have one method to improve in their "craft" and that is power points.

I think the easiest way to do this would be to change combat spells to work like the rest of the combat system.
IE: You can dodge and soak it.
Also, remove or limit overcasting - this should make object resistance, nets hits, and having a decent Magic score suddenly a LOT more important.

On a sidenote, I heard a good/decent houserule for Overcasting that changed overcast spells to stun damage(not physical), but also removed the Force/2 component from drain calculations.(that is, Full Force on drain) It won't KILL you, but it will very easily knock you out and ramp over into overflow.

[Glyph]

Spellcasters only got nerfed to the extent that everyone got nerfed. The higher cost is for all Attributes. So the ork looking to raise Body from 7 to 8 will be spending more, too. It does mean that GMs need to revise how they balance money and karma, if they want to keep augmented and awakened characters on comparatively equal footing.

Honestly, while I was annoyed that they did this so soon after Runner's Companion came out, and dragged their feet on an errata for the karmagen system, it makes sense. Raising an Attribute should cost at least as much as raising a skill group does.

[Makki]

I think the easiest way to do this would be to change combat spells to work like the rest of the combat system.
IE: You can dodge and soak it.
Also, remove or limit overcasting - this should make object resistance, nets hits, and having a decent Magic score suddenly a LOT more important.

Magic is so strong, because you resists with only one attribute (Will, Body or Int), while everything else is a skill+attribute test in the game. even against guns one can use full Dodge. People should be allowed Full Magic Dodge. Either allow non-magical character get Counterspelling for this purpose or use Willx2. Problem solved.

Wait, this is an Adept thread...

[Muspellsheimr]

Adepts, Rules as Written are bad (exception: highly specialized niche builds such as social or hacking are strong, but still usually stronger as an augmented adept).

My solution (that I have actually tested quite a bit) was to revise the Power Point cost of a significant number of adept powers. Overall, this resulted in improving adepts significantly without making them overpowered, and in some areas their power was reduced somewhat.

This change was used in addition to a number of other rules, most notably that players could use the "Purchase additional metamagics" rule at 15 Karma each (with the usual maximum of Magic bonus metamagics), and that adept & mystic adept characters could gain a Power Point as a metamagic (with a maximum number of times equal to initiate grade). This resulted in well balanced and playable adept characters.

Other relevant rules in place where a hard limit of 7 Magic/Resonance (with normal augmented maximum rules for Essence Drain and similar boosts), 5 Initiate/Submersion Grade, and increased Initiation/Submersion costs to 10 + (5 x new Grade).




Recently, however, I have been thinking of changing the metamagic power point rule. Instead, it would be a metamagic available to adepts/mystic adepts that granted (Initiate Grade ÷ 2) power points, rounded up. As a 'normal' metamagic, it can only be taken once.

I have not done any actual play testing with this yet. On paper it appears to be far stronger, but far more restricted, than the typical optional rule. I feel it is a more balanced option and stronger mechanical execution at this point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Recently, however, I have been thinking of changing the metamagic power point rule. Instead, it would be a metamagic available to adepts/mystic adepts that granted (Initiate Grade ÷ 2) power points, rounded up. As a 'normal' metamagic, it can only be taken once.

I have not done any actual play testing with this yet. On paper it appears to be far stronger, but far more restricted, than the typical optional rule. I feel it is a more balanced option and stronger mechanical execution at this point.

This is an Interesting Option. I would be quite interested in hearing how it plays out.

[Whipstitch]

You might want to phrase that idea differently here on dumpshock given that the division sign is a bit tough to tell apart from a plus sign with some display settings. For a split second I thought you were suggesting that Grade 3 could result in 5 power points. That conversation could have been rather heated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dez384]

Magic is so strong, because you resists with only one attribute (Will, Body or Int), while everything else is a skill+attribute test in the game. even against guns one can use full Dodge. People should be allowed Full Magic Dodge. Either allow non-magical character get Counterspelling for this purpose or use Willx2. Problem solved.

You can't dodge magic because its doesn't have an actual physical form; it is a bond between caster and and the casted upon. This is why area of effect spells don't affect people in the radius that the caster cannot see.

Some spells target areas or points in space; in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected. All visible targets within the area are affected;

There does exist as an equivalent of dodge for magic: counterspelling. It allows you to dodge, and you don't even have to use an action for full defense. Allowing mundanes to take counterspelling would be silly as seeing as how they don't have a magic stat and would have a small dice pool. It would also take up valuable bp/karma that could be allocated elsewhere.

Bottom line:
Magic must defeat Magic.

[Halflife]

Bottom line:
Magic must defeat Magic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-qLC_ptImo

[Falconer]

Muspellsheimr:

I've played under someone who combined those two optional rules. It is bad, horrendously bad. The only reason it didn't spiral out of control was because the adept players were new and didn't know the system well enough to make full use of it.

I have two major issues with it.

One the optional rule says "When they initiate they may... IE: not whenever they learn a metamagic... only when they initiate." The cost to learn metamagics is extremely low in comparison to magic attribute costs. The rules were never meant to be combined. (and don't combine well)
Two: when it was written 15 karma was the going rate to raise magic from 4->5... now it's the cost to go from 2->3... so it's almost always far cheaper to go that way. With the SR4a costs it's a bit too undercosted.



I haven't seen any problem w/ allowing adepts to gain 1PP when they gain an initiation, then pay 15karma more for a metamagic if they so choose in addition (there are few enough adept metamagics). This isn't that bad and adequately addresses the issue.

Caveat: I haven't seen way of the adept yet... and I suspect it includes some noticable power creep for adepts.


As far as the Magical/Techno vs mundane bits... I think the bigger problem are the skill caps in the first place. Especially for humans (who don't have any attribute boosts in place). I would much rather see substantial changes to the system to lessen the importance of attributes and increase the influence of skills. Experimentally it might be better to uncap skills but at a higher costs for non-mundanes. (IE: normal chars continue to advance skills at normal cost... while non-mundanes need to pay say 50% more).

Actually that thought gives an idea for something which might make people play humans... a 25% discount on skills for human characters... (instead of 4BP pre rank that works out to 3... and isn't too hard to figure in karma either).

One of the reasons that spirits 'break' after force 6 is their skills are still equal to force... (I've played w/ a houserule that spirit skills == half force... and that seems to have helped a bit).

[Irion]

It would be a good idea to raise the caps for skill. Lets say up to 10 (11 with quality).

Giving humans a discount on skills is a two edged sword.
The mundane would only pile up a lot of different skill, making the char very soon no more fun to play.
(A reduction of 25% does not sound like a lot, but consider the fact, that humans do not even have high attributes to spend their Karma. It basicly means a character with 10 skill would end up with 13 (and 1/3) skills.

For mages beeing human would become one of the best choices.

The rule of getting a power point per initiation and adding the initiation technic for 15 Karma is making it quite easy for adepts to get a lot of powers.
instead of raising your phyiscal skill group from 5 to 6 you just take 4 times the increase skill power for an initiation. (The technic you get for 15 Karma)
This (at least for the first few initiations) means you are getting a powerpoint for 15 Karma.
In this case here this powerpoint is worth 5*6=30 Karma. (If you do it with single skills it is wort 2*6*4=48 Karma)
(At least it caps out, when it does not pay off to get another rank of initiation and an additional MT.

The rules out of the way of adepts. A typical example for a rule trying to do both:
Making a significant impact, while trying not to change the balance too much.
This is achieved by limiting the amount of powers you are allowed to get with the discount.
So with magic 6 (warriors way) you would only get a discount on for example three times combat sence for a total of 1.5 Powerpoints. Resuliting in a discount of 0.375. Practically nothing.

But you could also choose increased reflexes 3 for 4 Powerpoints, resulting in a discount of 1 PP. (A typical rule leading to the urge to optimize your character.

[Mardrax]

It would be a good idea to raise the caps for skill. Lets say up to 10 (11 with quality).

And completely skew every balance the game has built in?

[Tyro]

Spellcasters only got nerfed to the extent that everyone got nerfed. The higher cost is for all Attributes. So the ork looking to raise Body from 7 to 8 will be spending more, too. It does mean that GMs need to revise how they balance money and karma, if they want to keep augmented and awakened characters on comparatively equal footing.

Honestly, while I was annoyed that they did this so soon after Runner's Companion came out, and dragged their feet on an errata for the karmagen system, it makes sense. Raising an Attribute should cost at least as much as raising a skill group does.

Most Attributes (exceptions: Body, Charisma) can be improved directly with 'ware (Willpower with a Pain Editor, Intuition with genetic infusion), and Body and Charisma can be sort-of improved with 'ware (Bone Lacing for damage resistance, symbiotes for improved healing, tailored pheremones for Charisma). Magic cannot.