[X] My Assistant

[Nebular]

Just a quick question regarding burning Edge. Are you allowed to burn your Edge down to 0 through the course of play, or can it never go below 1? I'm assuming that Human can also burn themselves do to 1 as well. I couldn't find anything in SR4A that says it can't go below 1 (to effectively show you're completely out of luck), but at the same time, it's implied that no Attribute can go below its Metatype Minimum.

[Yerameyahu]

Hmm. Dunno. Let's go with '1 is the minimum'. That way, you can't burn to 0, then buy a new point for only 3 (5?) Karma.

Or, allow it, but you gain the Bad Luck NQ when you hit 0. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As long as no one is gaining an advantage by trickery, I guess it doesn't matter which you choose.

[jizo]

if you have an edge of 1 or 0 how bad would the bad luck neg quality be, any time you use your (non-existant) edge stat roll a d6 on a 1 it backfires (-0 or -1 to the die pool) 6's don't explode go last in initiative once at best?

[Yerameyahu]

No, it's just that now you have an NQ *in case* you ever do try to buy it back up, and the NQ has to be bought off with Karma. It's not an immediate penalty (which honestly would be unfair). Now, you're not saving any Karma through trickery. Also… was that English at the end there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

The negative quality seems appropriate. If they buy up to 1 Edge again, they'd have to roll the d6 every time they use Edge, even when burning it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[James McMurray]

I don't think minimum attributes apply. If they did, there'd be no reason to have rules for what happens when an attribute hits 0. In any case, I'd allow it. Having an Edge of 1 sucks royally, and having it at 0 means you'll never be able to avoid a glitch or critical glitch.

[Yerameyahu]

But, it also means that you can buy a point to burn for a mere 5 Karma… over and over. It's not a situation you'd necessarily plan to get into, but once you're there? Doesn't seem fair. I'm not saying it's a big problem, but that's Hand of God. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And I can't even remember the last time I saw anyone glitch, let alone critically.

[Draco18s]

But, it also means that you can buy a point to burn for a mere 5 Karma… over and over.

And 16% of the time, you'll get nada for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[James McMurray]

If you've got nothing to do with your karma beyond use it to die and come back over and over, there's something wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We have glitches and critical glitches all the time, but we also have a lot of situations where PCs aren't just rolling whichever dice pool they min-maxed for. Just last night we had a character almost get lost in the sewers trying to follow their target. If she'd had a 0 Edge her lack of Tracking and the critical glitch it caused could easily have given whatever devil rat swarm, mutant alligator, or morlock tribe she accidentally tracked instead of the target a pretty good chance to kill her.

[Yerameyahu]

What, do you mean *if* you apply the Bad Luck 'penalty quality'? I'm not sure it even applies to Burning Edge. That is, I'm sure it doesn't by RAW, but I could see a GM changing that. Anyway, that's *only* if you give the player Bad Luck, which was just my suggestion.

James, Edge is good. Everyone knows that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Also, Burning can do a critical success, but I agree that neither's a great deal). But, if you somehow get yourself down to 1 Edge (presumably, through stupidity), 5 Karma seems ridiculous to replace it. Flooring Edge at 1 means it'll always be at least 10 Karma to raise it, which seems more reasonable. After all, if Burning Edge is such a bad deal, why do they want to go from 1 to 0 anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Min-maxing *means* minimizing the chance that you'll roll something you're likely to glitch.

[Dez384]

According to the book, a GM can "hand of god" to save a Prime Runner from Dying in one of those scenarios where a PC would say "there is no way anyone could have survived that". To do so, the GM burns ALL of the prime runner's edge.

[Yerameyahu]

Hah, that's fair. Although, NPCs can do anything the GM wants. He's the GM.

[pbangarth]

Yerameyahu, you have to look at the whole picture. You say a player can continually buy Edge from 0 to 1 for 5 karma, and then get himself a sure success with it, and do it all over again. This seems cheap to you. But look at a couple of other things going on:

• The player has to hang on to his one and only Edge point for just the right circumstance. The rest of the time, he has to do without. I don't know about other people's games, but in the ones I play, Edge gets used a lot. Having only one is a real disadvantage.
  
• 5 karma is the better part, if not all, of the awards for a run. Spending it on continually building your PC back to where he started the run is going to get your PC left behind by the rest of the party. Stagnating a PC so he gets one sure success a run? Hmmm.

[Yerameyahu]

Like I already said, it's not a big problem, and no one would do it on purpose (hell, like I said, I'd never burn Edge ever). I just don't like weak spots. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And 'he's already screwed' isn't a good reason to start ignoring those weak spots. My preferred ruling *isn't* the Bad Luck penalty, it's that you're floored at 1; no one gets punished, no tiny abuse potential, no fuss.

Since it's been mentioned, though: Edge is a bonus. Your character (unless it's Mr. Lucky) shouldn't *need* it for anything (no, not even Suppressive Fire). It's a *great* bonus, worth throwing BP into, but Edge 1 isn't some kind of curse. It probably means you stretched your chargen really thin, but it's not crippled in any way at all.

[pbangarth]

Yes, I see your point, Yerameyahu.

My position is, "If you want to shaft your own PC that badly, I won't stop you. Soon enough you will have another pass at character generation."

[Yerameyahu]

I can dig that. In reality, you pick your battles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Talking about battles *not* worth picking is basically why I come here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[James McMurray]

If a shadowrunner gets to pick all of his battles either he's not really a shadowrunner or the GM needs to grows some stones and have a more realistic world. "Pick your battles" is a great motto, but an impossible lifestyle choice.

[CanRay]

"Yeah, pick your battles carefully, I know. But the battles always come picking me." - Pup

[Glyph]

You may not need Edge, normally, but it is there as a mechanic to help a player when the dice are determined to do you in, or when a single moment of bad judgment could have fatal consequences. A high Edge is nice to have, but the basic Edge of 1 or 2 is vital, for when you really, really need it.

[Yerameyahu]

… James McMurray. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I meant you, as a GM, pick your battles… about what minor rules abuses to worry about.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard 'pick your battles' used in a literal sense. Maybe in a Patton movie? Possibly in Dune? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

If a shadowrunner gets to pick all of his battles either he's not really a shadowrunner or the GM needs to grows some stones and have a more realistic world. "Pick your battles" is a great motto, but an impossible lifestyle choice.

This assumes that realistic shadowrunners do not pick their own battles. I submit that realistic living experienced shadowrunners have picked most if not all of their battles, thus "pick your battles" is the (if not only) realistic shadowrunner lifestyle choice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This assumes that realistic shadowrunners do not pick their own battles. I submit that realistic living experienced shadowrunners have picked most if not all of their battles, thus "pick your battles" is the (if not only) realistic shadowrunner lifestyle choice.

Indeed. If you somehow get into a situation that is less than optimal, as a Shadowrunner, you should do everything in your power to escape it as soon as possible. Only engage when it is your choice, not your oppositions choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

Indeed. If you somehow get into a situation that is less than optimal, as a Shadowrunner, you should do everything in your power to escape it as soon as possible. Only engage when it is your choice, not your oppositions choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You try explaining that to the Wolf Shaman. I'll be over here while you do do. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over here.

I'm of the mind that if any stat goes to 0 (Excepting Magic or Resonance), Bad Things™ happen.

An Edge of Zero means that you've pushed your luck too hard, and you just might no longer be lucky enough to live any longer at all...

[Mardrax]

I'm of the mind that if any stat goes to 0 (Excepting Magic or Resonance), Bad Things™ happen.

You mean a mage or technomancer losing his ability to use his schtick at all isn't a Bad Thing™? 0_o

[Saint Sithney]

if you have an edge of 1 or 0 how bad would the bad luck neg quality be, any time you use your (non-existant) edge stat roll a d6 on a 1 it backfires (-0 or -1 to the die pool) 6's don't explode go last in initiative once at best?

Bad luck is murder on an edge reroll.
You hit that 1 and instead of rerolling all the dice that missed, you reroll only those dice that scored hits.

Welcome to glitch town; have a glitch.