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> alt.war: Russia - quo prodest?, As in - are you interested in SR4E Russia fan write-up?
So, the questions would be...
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Fatum
post May 7 2011, 11:25 PM
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So, our alt.war project, for which I'd been writing about Russo-Yakutian war, seems to have ground to a halt.
Since I seem to be the one with the draft with the most content, and also seem to be the most stubborn of the contributors, I could try finishing my part regardless, be it now or some time in the future when the university takes less of my efforts. The question is - is there community interest in the results?

My plans so far include a chapter-long write-up of Russo-Yakutian war some time around '73; and since both countries got only cursory coverage in 6WA and elsewhere in 4E material, I also wanted to include a chapter for each country involved, describing the regime, the culture, and running there; a chapter for each country's armed forces; and finally a chapter for gaming stats, covering each country's magic, firearms, vehicles, NPC stats, maps and whatnot (not actually sure if that should be one common chapter of two separate country-specific ones). I'm looking at old books like Atzlan as an example.

Obviously enough, I'm not too keen on just writing the thing for myself and my players, so I'd like to know whether you're interested, or whether you'd want specific topics covered, or maybe whether you think some topics are excessive.

Now, if the results are to be presented to the wider world, obviously they are to be wrapped in pdf form and supplied with art. That is, naturally, a tad bit problematic, raising a lot of questions. For example, we could try emulating the look of the official books of any edition, using things like borders, general layout, or chapter structure; or we could try something of our own design. What do you think would be the best option? Would you per chance be willing to help with putting it all together? (I have an old contact of mine who's agreed to help me, but I'm not sure he's up to editing a hundred pages, and I myself have no pdf editing skills whatsoever).

Similarly, while art would be a nice addition, and I'm willing to invest some of my pocket money into getting it, it doesn't appear to be all that simple to find an artist to begin with. I could use the blueprints of RL analogues for game stats illustrations, but that still leaves the question of how to illustrate the other chapters. How important is the art for your interest, anyway? Do you know anyone who might help, or would you be willing to participate yourself per chance (again, I'm devoid of any kind of artistic talent)?

tldr: your opinion decides whether I should finish the supplement, and if yes, what should the end result look like.
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Halflife
post May 8 2011, 04:17 AM
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This sadly comes too late for our Russian Shadowrun campaign this year (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) but I could be tempted to return to it with some Grade A fan material. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Dez384
post May 8 2011, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (Halflife @ May 7 2011, 11:17 PM) *
This sadly comes too late for our Russian Shadowrun campaign this year (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) but I could be tempted to return to it with some Grade A fan material. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You want to go against shapechanging spetsnaz?
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CanRay
post May 8 2011, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 7 2011, 11:25 PM) *
You want to go against shapechanging spetsnaz?

They'd be bears, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Loch
post May 8 2011, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ May 8 2011, 01:40 AM) *
They'd be bears, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Funnily enough, according to Shadows of Asia they're mostly cat shifters. I hear the weretigers do especially well in commando roles.
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Fatum
post May 8 2011, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 8 2011, 08:25 AM) *
You want to go against shapechanging spetsnaz?

Well, far as I remember, shapeshifters prefer working for Awakened Yakut, and I'm not sure Yakut would call their spec-ops Spetznaz...
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HeckfyEx
post May 8 2011, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE
and I'm not sure Yakut would call their spec-ops Spetznaz...

Or anyone else for that matter. Calling spec-ops "Spec-Ops" seems kinda silly.
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Jhaiisiin
post May 8 2011, 02:44 PM
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With all the uproar about how bad War was by the fans, you'd think we could have gotten it together and delivered on the re-write. Guess it shows that we didn't have the motivation we thought we did.

Hopefully what was completed will be released.
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Fatum
post May 8 2011, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ May 8 2011, 06:44 PM) *
With all the uproar about how bad War was by the fans, you'd think we could have gotten it together and delivered on the re-write. Guess it shows that we didn't have the motivation we thought we did.

Hopefully what was completed will be released.
Pah, the usual fate of fan projects.
But, as you can see, I'm considering finishing the thing out of sheer stubbornness, and the voting so far seems to support that decision.
Now, the whole pdf editing and art thing... D:
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post May 8 2011, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ May 8 2011, 01:14 PM) *
Pah, the usual fate of fan projects.
But, as you can see, I'm considering finishing the thing out of sheer stubbornness, and the voting so far seems to support that decision.
Now, the whole pdf editing and art thing... D:


Yeah, Fatum, by far was the guy who most wrote stuff while I was second (but to be fair almost no one wrote anything, so...)
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nezumi
post May 8 2011, 11:18 PM
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I am quite interested in Russia, from a cultural and stylistic standpoint. I don't play SR4, but ... I can ignore that shortcoming ;P My primary concern is whether the author has a real 'feel' for what Russia should be like, and writes a compelling, believable story consistent with Russia as I understand it to be. It would have to be properly edited and professionally written. I don't need art, although it helps.
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warrior_allanon
post May 8 2011, 11:41 PM
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send it to me, the DDH issue that i'm still working on needs more to flesh it out and while something i'm working on right now will help to flesh things out, I hate to seem like i'm using something that everyone should be taking part in to semi-publish my own work.
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Fatum
post May 9 2011, 12:14 AM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ May 9 2011, 03:18 AM) *
I am quite interested in Russia, from a cultural and stylistic standpoint. I don't play SR4, but ... I can ignore that shortcoming ;P
Well, I'm not sure if my work will be useful for you if you don't play 4E. Maybe the bits on culture, hmph.

QUOTE (nezumi @ May 9 2011, 03:18 AM) *
My primary concern is whether the author has a real 'feel' for what Russia should be like, and writes a compelling, believable story consistent with Russia as I understand it to be.
Naturally, everyone has their own understanding of the fluff, but I'm trying to keep my work as consistent with existing in-game knowledge as possible. You can always check out my work here, I'm open for suggestions and corrections.

QUOTE (nezumi @ May 9 2011, 03:18 AM) *
It would have to be properly edited and professionally written. I don't need art, although it helps.
Well, editing I have more or less covered, I hope. In what comes to being written professionally - ehhhh. I'm not a pro writer, so I just hope strict editing helps.


QUOTE (warrior_allanon @ May 9 2011, 03:41 AM) *
send it to me, the DDH issue that i'm still working on needs more to flesh it out and while something i'm working on right now will help to flesh things out, I hate to seem like i'm using something that everyone should be taking part in to semi-publish my own work.
You see, we're talking more than a hundred pages of stuff here, with internal structure and whatnot. I believe it'd be better as standalone - however, alt.war has several drafts of different stages of preparedness, maybe you might want to use those?
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Sengir
post May 9 2011, 10:36 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ May 8 2011, 12:25 AM) *
My plans so far include a chapter-long write-up of Russo-Yakutian war some time around '73;

Sounds like a nice background, better than yet-another-jungle-war-knockoff. Are you also planning to integrate the Sagan Zaba (or whatever they were called) conflict with the Yakut shifters?

PS: I used to do a lot of work with LaTeX, so if that becomes the layout tool of choice I'd gladly volunteer some help (pending RL, of course) to keep me from forgetting everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Grinder
post May 9 2011, 11:28 AM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ May 8 2011, 11:57 PM) *
Yeah, Fatum, by far was the guy who most wrote stuff while I was second (but to be fair almost no one wrote anything, so...)


http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51934 - Frank Trollman so beats you two. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Fatum
post May 9 2011, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 9 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Sounds like a nice background, better than yet-another-jungle-war-knockoff. Are you also planning to integrate the Sagan Zaba (or whatever they were called) conflict with the Yakut shifters?
Well, the fighting there never really stopped since the secession war, it just degraded to border skirmishes and provocations, as far as canon info goes. Seemed like a nice and reasonable place to have a big war, minding that the two countries have both a history of hostility and reasons to want each others' stuff (Russia more so, of course).
And yeah, of course I'm planning to integrate the Sagan Zaba rebels, with all the conspiracy theories behind them. There's a problem here, though - very little is known about them from canon sources, so while with Yakut I can at least base my writing on pre-existing info, with Sagan Zaba I'm left to my own devices (and that's especially troubling if I am to explain the nature of their power, or just to show their capabilities in war). And as an additional concern - Sagan Zaba seems to be an ongoing plot line in official books, so elaborating on the rebellion too much could easily mean producing a supplement incompatible with further CGL books.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 9 2011, 02:36 PM) *
PS: I used to do a lot of work with LaTeX, so if that becomes the layout tool of choice I'd gladly volunteer some help (pending RL, of course) to keep me from forgetting everything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I'm not really familiar with tex/latex, what is it capable of when it comes to pdf building?


QUOTE (Grinder @ May 9 2011, 03:28 PM) *
Yep, but he seems to be writing Shadowrun 4.5E.
And I feel that including radically new mechanics in a fan supplement is the worst decision possible, since it limits the number of people willing to adopt the materials inside (which is already low for any fan supplement) to almost nothing.
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Sengir
post May 9 2011, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ May 9 2011, 12:40 PM) *
And yeah, of course I'm planning to integrate the Sagan Zaba rebels, with all the conspiracy theories behind them. There's a problem here, though - very little is known about them from canon sources, so while with Yakut I can at least base my writing on pre-existing info, with Sagan Zaba I'm left to my own devices (and that's especially troubling if I am to explain the nature of their power, or just to show their capabilities in war). And as an additional concern - Sagan Zaba seems to be an ongoing plot line in official books, so elaborating on the rebellion too much could easily mean producing a supplement incompatible with further CGL books.

YMMV, but to me it seems like CGL has no immediate interest in furthering this storyline, because...well, have there been any new developments in the region? AFAIK it's still "rebels with weird artifacts around the lake, shifters everywhere else".

QUOTE
I'm not really familiar with tex/latex, what is it capable of when it comes to pdf building?

If you have read some scientific papers, chances are they have been done with Latex. Of course since it's mostly used for "prosaic" stuff things like background images might be more complicated than with other DTP tools...don't really have experience with other such tools, so I can't give a comparison

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Yep, but he seems to be writing Shadowrun 4.5E.

More like Shadowrun "proof that I can do better" Edition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Mardrax
post May 9 2011, 07:11 PM
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InDesign is your friend for doing pdf making in my experience. Free demo available off Adobe's website, as goes for all of their CS software. Takes a bit of getting used to, but after that, it's all smooth sailing.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post May 9 2011, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ May 9 2011, 09:40 AM) *
I'm not really familiar with tex/latex, what is it capable of when it comes to pdf building?


Pretty much anything, I used it to write my grad thesis and I thought it was really good, specially to write any kind of mathematical expressions (and grapics too).

QUOTE (Fatum @ May 9 2011, 09:40 AM) *
Yep, but he seems to be writing Shadowrun 4.5E.
And I feel that including radically new mechanics in a fan supplement is the worst decision possible, since it limits the number of people willing to adopt the materials inside (which is already low for any fan supplement) to almost nothing.


I did forget about Trollman, true. But I agree with Fatum he is writing way too much, not only about fluff but also about mechanics, A LOT OF MECHANICS.
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Grinder
post May 10 2011, 06:13 AM
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Brazilian_Shinobi made no distinction between fluff and crunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ May 8 2011, 11:57 PM) *
Yeah, Fatum, by far was the guy who most wrote stuff while I was second (but to be fair almost no one wrote anything, so...)


Have to agree with you - Frank should have concentrated on the fluff, but with his attitude towards SR4, CGL, and the world in general, he just couldn't.
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Sengir
post May 10 2011, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ May 9 2011, 10:18 PM) *
Pretty much anything

Provided you can find the right package. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@Fatum: Is there a draft or something online?
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Fatum
post May 10 2011, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ May 9 2011, 09:50 PM) *
YMMV, but to me it seems like CGL has no immediate interest in furthering this storyline, because...well, have there been any new developments in the region? AFAIK it's still "rebels with weird artifacts around the lake, shifters everywhere else".
Well, it's there, the hints are all over the place, plus 6WA featured some plot seeds for Russia as well, so I figure something might be coming.

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 9 2011, 09:50 PM) *
If you have read some scientific papers, chances are they have been done with Latex. Of course since it's mostly used for "prosaic" stuff things like background images might be more complicated than with other DTP tools...don't really have experience with other such tools, so I can't give a comparison
Yeah, sure enough, I know what latex is used for, it's just that I'm not aware what it's capable of when it comes to pdf. Can it make neat AE-styled pages?

QUOTE (Sengir @ May 9 2011, 09:50 PM) *
More like Shadowrun "proof that I can do better" Edition (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Let's be fair here - SR4 is a system with a lot of holes; the only reason it's used is other systems are even worse. So I have nothing against trying to fix 4E, or trying to write a new, upgraded, edition. I just don't feel this attempt should be made as a part of alt.war project. Well, whatever, with this project dead, it's not like it matters any more.


QUOTE (Mardrax @ May 9 2011, 11:11 PM) *
InDesign is your friend for doing pdf making in my experience. Free demo available off Adobe's website, as goes for all of their CS software. Takes a bit of getting used to, but after that, it's all smooth sailing.
I've tried it, it's really weird. I believe I could cope with learning to use it, but that'd take a book and a lot of free time on my part.


QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ May 10 2011, 02:18 AM) *
I did forget about Trollman, true. But I agree with Fatum he is writing way too much, not only about fluff but also about mechanics, A LOT OF MECHANICS.
Btw, in what comes to mechanics - I'll need a lot of playtesting or just general opinions with all the stuff I'm hoping to bring into the system.


QUOTE (Grinder @ May 10 2011, 10:13 AM) *
Have to agree with you - Frank should have concentrated on the fluff, but with his attitude towards SR4, CGL, and the world in general, he just couldn't.
I don't think many alt.war contributors like CGL in its current shape and form. It's just a question of productive counteraction. I just doubt writing your own rulesystem is really productive.


QUOTE (Sengir @ May 10 2011, 01:13 PM) *
@Fatum: Is there a draft or something online?
Sure, I've linked it in this thread already - here it is.
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Sengir
post May 11 2011, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ May 10 2011, 10:01 AM) *
Sure, I've linked it in this thread already - here it is.

Wow, I must say I'm impressed by the sheer volume already

QUOTE
Yeah, sure enough, I know what latex is used for, it's just that I'm not aware what it's capable of when it comes to pdf. Can it make neat AE-styled pages?

Guess there's only one way to find out...I need to brush up my skills anyway...
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post May 11 2011, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ May 10 2011, 03:13 AM) *
Brazilian_Shinobi made no distinction between fluff and crunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Sorry, didn't understand what you meant here.
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Sengir
post May 11 2011, 05:03 PM
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Tinkered around a bit while waiting for a DL.... http://uploaded.to/file/yvxgi7ul

I must say what adds the most is quite simply the background image I copied from the 4A pdf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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