[X] My Assistant

[DireRadiant]

I ask myself, "What is a Drone?"
And look, I go find the descriptions of drones as a class of vehicle.

p. 244 SR4A, the section titled Drones. While there is a lot of more general stuff, you may be interested in the sentence,
"Drones (and only drones) are incapable of carrying passengers and
are instead fitted with an integral rigger adaptation (p. 348)."

The next sentence implies you can have passenger drones, but that's because you can turn a vehicle into a drone. But note it starts as a vehicle.

That's from the main rule book core definition of a drone, not the specific special cases that come in other books.

[Udoshi]

I think people assume a person couldn't be inside because a person *can't* be inside them.

While this is normally true, however, a Large Drone is a Standard Vehicle for mod distinctions, which is all you need for a Rigger Coccoon, which CAN have a person inside it.


Also, at body 4, its the size of a small tank(comparatively), Using the steel lynx for comparison. If medium drones(Steed, Orderly) and Large Drones(crashcart, from the core book, even) can carry people then you can't really point at an outdated rulebook to say 'oh no, it doesn't work like that', when newer rules quite clearly say they do. The upper size range for a body 4 drone is a small car, and even a humbug fits two. Not comfortably mind you, but it does.(also on page 102)

These additional rules compliment the vehicle rules in sr4. Rules governing advanced rigging will be covered in Unwired

Gee. So the core book says drones can't have passengers, and then newer arsenal says drones CAN have passengers if they say so. Gosh, I wonder which is right. There's nothing wrong with the exception taking precedence over the general - but the rigger cocoon lets you take it a step further and apply it to other things.

On a side note, I'd recommend limiting rigger cocoon's armor on drones to that of the drone itself. it doesn't make sense that it would be tougher than the frame its mounted on - and it uses barrier rules, which are even harder.

I don't understand. The dalmatian is not a minidrone or microdrone. It's a medium drone. The rigger cocoon is a standard mod, so it fits. A person goes in the rigger cocoon. What am I missing?

You're not. Thats exactly how it works - plus some size/comfort considerations for the specific product involved when the GM looked it over.

[Ascalaphus]

I do get the idea some of you are getting to hung up on that drones don't normally carry passengers. That's just because normally they don't get manual control nor seats - but on a big enough drone, you could put those in.

[Yerameyahu]

a Large Drone is a Standard Vehicle for mod distinctions, which is all you need for a Rigger Coccoon

This is exactly the kind of munchkin reasoning I was talking about. It makes sense… if you ignore everything else you know about the game. For more examples, see the whole Broken Rule thread. Don't encourage longbowrocks to cheat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Arsenal says that drones can have passengers in exactly 3 situations: medical drones, someone literally sitting atop the drone, or someone literally carried as cargo… presumably from a hook.

Ascalaphus, I agree. I just don't agree that there *are* any drones big enough (well, maybe cargo drones, if they exist); not the Dalmatian, anyway. There's no room. It's not a question of 'aw, no captain's chair?'.

[Falconer]

I agree, it's pure munchkinism at it's worst. It's no different than when you see someone trying to put a monster gun on miniscule weapon mount where the gun ends up much larger than the drone itself.


I don't see a problem w/ the concept... but it makes sense that every bit of space on the drone is already taken up though. At the very least it should require a large drone IMO.... and then I'd require 2 different mods to make it work... and probably hit it w/ the over-modded penalty on top as a speed/handling penalty...

Look at the 'special machinery/storage' mod... the drone itself doesn't have space available inside it, even if the 'rigger cocoon' is slapped on. At best at that point you've added a noticable external cargo 'pouch' which should be detectable by visual sensors in something as simple as a tacnet... (uses sensors to identify drones/weapons/etc... it only makes sense if the rone has a non-standard silhouette it may raise red flags).

Personally I don't see an issue w/ slapping rigger cocoon on any of the medical 'wheelchair/crashcart' drones. Another drone I wouldn't have a problem w/ a rigger slapping a cocoon in is the Ares Auxilia Mk3. It's a large cargo drone w/ armored cargo bins... It's a good way for the Rigger to protect himself while on the run w/ the rest of his team. (due to the prevalence of signal blocking paint and such... I have issues w/ people claiming radar will see through it and let them control/shoot through many walls). But like the entire vehicle mod section, you need a little bit of common sense.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, good point: the Auxilia is definitely a cargo drone, and certainly with space inside for passengers. I think there's also a cargo drone flier in the book, but I got the impression it carries cargo like a S-64 Skycrane (externally, underneath).

[Falconer]

Yeah there's the Kull. But it's only a medium drone and not designed for combat (no armor whatsoever). (which to me means, no internal storage whatsoever). It carries cargo in 2 underwing hardpoints. And you'll need an airstrip for it (no VSTOL, fixed wing).
Std. Upgrades: Special Cargo (2 exterior airdrop cargo mounts), Signature Masking 1.


I'd like the drone a bit more if the nacelles were fleshed out a bit more... I have no issues w/ putting 2 dumb iron bombs on the underwing 'hardpoints' rather than droppable cargo. The thing with that one you need to be careful about is there's a lot of leeway for what you could put in an external airdrop cargo mount... case in point... why not an external gunpod... Why not carry another drone or two? (reconnaisance pod fitted w/ an iBall in an aerodynamic enclosure say).

It's the closest thing you can get to a weak 'omni-fighter' to borrow the battletech term. Thinking it over again, I think the problem is there's no indication to the size/weight constraints on the cargo.

[longbowrocks]

I have issues w/ people claiming radar will see through it and let them control/shoot through many walls). But like the entire vehicle mod section, you need a little bit of common sense.

Common sense tells me that the drone has a body, most likely constructed of metal plates, which have structure rating. Common sense tells me that structure rating will be less than (rating radar 4)*5=20. If anything, If anything, it would be some nuance of the rules that would put a bear trap in their path.

[Falconer]

Longbow, I'm talking about buildings w/ signal blocking paint and faradays cages. And people claiing they're rigging while safe in a bulldog miles away from the actual run.

ECCM does not help against path loss from shielding. I'm not talking about looking inside the drone... (metal plates in case you didn't know block most radio signals). MM-wave radar allows you to 'see' the drone in nice surface detail. Cyberware scanners which can look inside things have very limited ranges in comparison.



As far as what the drone is made of... I have no idea... it may be metal... it may be made out of kevlar/ceramic plates for lightweight armor... who knows. The game never says and I make no claims. I was never talking about looking INSIDE the drone... only looking for obvious SHAPE distortions of the drone. The drone itself *HAS NO INTERNAL STORAGE*, where is the rigger cocoon going? obviously somewhere on the exterior of the drone since you've made no modification to create interior storage in addition. Why can't someone w/ a MM wave radar or a camera image the drone and red flag it when the tacnet fails to identify it.

This is why I call BS on your munchkinism example.

[Ascalaphus]

This is one of those cases where it's tempting to resort to common sense instead of blind adherence to some reading of the rules.

Personally, I'd say that if a vehicle has free mod slots, then there's free space in the vehicle; you could put a passenger spot in that mod slot.

Some critical thinking would be required of course, but large drones would usually be, well, large enough to fit it in; with medium drones it can get trickier.

[longbowrocks]

Longbow, I'm talking about buildings w/ signal blocking paint and faradays cages. And people claiing they're rigging while safe in a bulldog miles away from the actual run.

Ah, sorry. It looked to me like you pulled it out of context when you made the "common sense" comment.
...I JUST now saw that you meant seeing through signal blocking paint. I had drones on the mind at that point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
What's wrong with rigging from miles away? I feel like that's kind of the point. Also, I haven't seen any rules for matrix lag outside of being on the moon.

(metal plates in case you didn't know block most radio signals).

That sounds like your talking about RL. The structure mechanic is there so we don't have to do that.

The drone itself *HAS NO INTERNAL STORAGE*, where is the rigger cocoon going? obviously somewhere on the exterior of the drone since you've made no modification to create interior storage in addition. Why can't someone w/ a MM wave radar or a camera image the drone and red flag it when the tacnet fails to identify it.

This is why I call BS on your munchkinism example.

If you'll look above, you'll notice that I meant "outside the drone" from the get-go.
I feel like Yerameyahu brought up better reasons why this wouldn't work (the rigger cocoon doesn't seem like it would be rigid, but rather semi-stiff from packing on incredible amounts of insulation. ie, it doesn't reflect attacks, but rather insulates against them), but looking back, I can see I made the mistake of accepting RL reasoning where the rules would suffice.

Now I kind of want to continue this argument, but I see another battle dawning on the horizon. Thus it is my duty to attend.

[Sengir]

Nowhere can I find anywhere that a sprite can use software/autosofts loaded into the drone.

Hence my advice to the OP - the rules indeed say squat about how a sprite can interact with the drone. By RAW the sprite just has two very limited options: telling the pilot "hey, please fly over there" which is then performed autonomously by the pilot, or using his Command CF to default on the skills for ground- and watercraft.
(Same applies to agents as well)

To be viable for a combat drone though it strikes me at a minimum you'd need a rating 6 machine sprite (command CF, then two autosoft CF's).

That's another problem of "my" sprite solution - but at least a sprite can do something with his autosofts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I agree, it's pure munchkinism at it's worst. It's no different than when you see someone trying to put a monster gun on miniscule weapon mount where the gun ends up much larger than the drone itself.

You mean like the Arachnae?





-k

[Yerameyahu]

Kind of the exception that proves the rule, innit? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ascalaphus, I agree that it depends on the GM and player being reasonable, but I just disagree with the assumption that mod slots = free space.

[Ascalaphus]

*shrug* Mod slots don't exactly equate to free space, but mod slots, description, size category and picture can give you a reasonable ground to argue for or against making passenger space in a drone.

And given that we lack rules for creating drones from scratch, it's a somewhat-balanced workaround to make things not already provided.

[Udoshi]

The drone itself *HAS NO INTERNAL STORAGE*, where is the rigger cocoon going? obviously somewhere on the exterior of the drone since you've made no modification to create interior storage in addition.

Its going the same place an LMG,(weapon mount, internal, fixed) 250 rounds of ammo, plus another 500 rounds in two additional belts(last two slots being Ammunition Bins).

Or we could put four Ejection seats on it.

Or the satellite dish.

Or even a Workshop. Or four workshops. Or four -facility- workshops.



Rigger cocoons aren't the only bulky system that can cause your drone to become a bag of holding. Kneejerking rules reflexes and quoting the RAW about passengers totally doesn't make sense in some cases. But if you're going to enforce it in some cases, you should do it in all cases, otherwise its a double standard.

[Udoshi]

You mean like the Arachnae?
-k

Or the Hachiman?

[longbowrocks]

Or even a Workshop. Or four workshops. Or four -facility- workshops.

I suddenly want to be a rigger. Our entire party would be jockeying for position to wash my feet.

[Yerameyahu]

Udoshi, those are great reasons *not* to allow it. I wouldn't allow the ejection seats either, or the workshop, etc., because that's equally stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's the whole point. A little ammo storage is hardly room for a person+seat. There's no question of *not* enforcing common sense all the time.

[Falconer]

Its going the same place an LMG,(weapon mount, internal, fixed) 250 rounds of ammo, plus another 500 rounds in two additional belts(last two slots being Ammunition Bins).

Or we could put four Ejection seats on it.

Or the satellite dish.

Or even a Workshop. Or four workshops. Or four -facility- workshops.


Rigger cocoons aren't the only bulky system that can cause your drone to become a bag of holding. Kneejerking rules reflexes and quoting the RAW about passengers totally doesn't make sense in some cases. But if you're going to enforce it in some cases, you should do it in all cases, otherwise its a double standard.

I strongly disagree... look at the mod I suggested... storage compartment.... It gives a good example of how much mod space you need to create a space when none exists. For a shadowrunner w/ 4 body, armor & equipment... space to move around... you're looking at 2 maybe for a dwarf... more likely 3 space mod, just to create an interior compartment.

1 mod slot for an ejection seat doesn't necessarily include the seat. Adding ejection to the passenger seat of your corvette isn't that bad... the seat and passenger compartment are already there.

Another laughable comment... we're talking about a *4 body* vehicle... please the only non-drone vehicle I can think of with a score that low is the Dodge Scoot... When I think of a steel lynx, I think of an armored 4 wheeler w/ a gun mount where the passenger seat would be (something I could toss in the back of a pickup truck). Not something the size of a small car (which would have a body score of 8-10). Even the basic motorcycles all start w/ body scores of at least 6.


Nowhere in the rigger cocoon does it say it includes a seat or passenger compartment. It only says it armors such a space for the rigger.


Same goes for a weapon mount. a LMG is a LOT smaller than a person. Even w/ a can of a few hundred rounds of ammo it's nowhere near the size of a person. Then a basic weapon mount is *EXTERNAL* and obvious ... by the time you make it internal fixed forward... it's already taken up 3 mod space. (1 mount, +2 internal visibility). A full 3x more than a 1 slot 'rigger cocoon' modification which people are claiming is internal and non-obvious.

Then they put it on a *FLYING* drone... what's the drones lift capacity?! You're going to stuff an orc w/ equipment in it which probably ways close to as much as the drones empty weight alone...

This is what I mean by a lack of common sense... and why I call it just powergaming munchkin rules lawyering w/ no common sense. Modding something where the basics are already there the mod costs make perfect sense... modding something where no chair or space is even present is quite another.

[Yerameyahu]

Not to quibble, but the rigger cocoon does mention a seat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why I think it *doesn't* fit.

[Udoshi]

Then they put it on a *FLYING* drone... what's the drones lift capacity?! You're going to stuff an orc w/ equipment in it which probably ways close to as much as the drones empty weight alone...

What you really should be asking is "Bridgekeeper: What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen falcon?" Because you can do all that on a small drone. Much less a Large.

And guess what. The entertainment systems falcon - or similiarly sized drones - are small.

[DireRadiant]

This is the classic, "The rules don't say I can not do it, so it must be ok." approach, which leads to a large rule set.

[longbowrocks]

All this from an offhand remark about ferrying the team around in a Dalmatian. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Anyway, I guess they wouldn't have bothered to classify drones and vehicles separately if all it took to turn a vehicle into a drone was the manual steering removal mod, the rigger cocoon, and rigger adaptation. This might also explain the price differences (AFB, so don't rail on me too much if there are none).

[LurkerOutThere]

Nothing prevents fading being healed by magic (or other means). I'm still on the fence about how I feel about this, but honestly it doesn't come up enough to be a problem in my games.

Other thoughts: There is a pretty good technokmancer equivalent of the control rig, it's available as a submersion echo.