Ammunition, The basic selection just isn't enough Options

[Draco18s]

(+2 DV -2 AV grants toughly the same effect).

+2 DV, -2 AP is not the "same" as +4 AP. +4 AP is roughly the same as -1.3 DV, so +1 DV -1 AP is "the same."

[Falconer]

Also compared to other ammo, a +4 in armor-piercing is about n par with the differecen between regula and ex-ex ammo (+2 DV -2 AV grants toughly the same effect).

This was errata'd hard. Ex-Ex is only +1DV, -1AP now. ('Ex' is +1DV).
Otherwise there's almost no reason ever to take APDS over Ex-Ex.

Similarly everything w/ a flechette (f) damage code has a +5AP on it (not the +2 seen in the charts).

[Wakshaani]

No. I demand samples. And some good ammo for comparison. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Well, here's some reading:

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/...ifle-magazines/

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/...n-marksmanship/

Both discuss how the Taliban fighters can't hit jack, and about the randomness of the ammo (Some of which is 40 years old!) that they're using.

Sorry I can't produce *actual* bullets for you to try out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Falconer]

Bullets use a gilding metal (normally a copper alloy, though not necessarily) to jacket them. The alloy has a few purposes. It's ductile enough to fit into the rifling without excessive barrel wear (steel jackets on bullets WILL wear out barrels quickly). Not to leave a layer of itself behind in the barrel which will need cleaned later (fouling - pure lead bullets tend to do this). Also it's rigid enough to keep the bullets shape and balance when fired (high G forces will make soft lead change it's shape).


Wakshaani:

That's a function of two things, one crap ammo. (distorted bullets, inconsistent bullet and powder weights, corrosive primers/propellants..).

The other is that the standard AK is not well maintained and not designed for precision. A gun which can fire with mud and sand all over it's innards is a gun designed with very loose tolerances. Firing corrosive ammo or steel ammo like above also compounds this with a lot of barrel wear... if the barrels shot out... don't expect a lot of precision as the quality of the rifling goes.

[CanRay]

*Pouts* I want bullets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Good reads, thank you.

I had been wondering how they went from mountain marksmen with SMLEs to "Can't hit the broadside of a mountain" with an AK.

[Lantzer]

You are asking for an ammunition that is both : Depleted Uranium Core AND High Explosive.

Basically you are asking for something that prove you have no knowledge of what you are asking for. As a GM I would be delighted to provide you with such an ammunition, just as will be every salesman in every shop you enter, "of course they come at an hefty price but I just happen to have a box left right behind the corner. Sure the box doesn't say HEAPDUC, but we both know how that kind of things work *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*. Now can I interested you in a gyrojet-multilauncher-ceramic plated gun ? It is nicely disguised as a plain paper roll but it wont trick such a connoissor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) "

It's not like the game doesn't already have such mutually exclusive weapons systems already. I'm referring to the supercavitating torpedo that is priced based on the rating of it's homing electronics. Nevermind the fact that as far as I know, these torpedoes are always dumb-fired because their own operation pretty much makes any kind of guidance and sensors worthless. They are high-speed direct fire weapons.

[Oracle]

Nevermind the fact that as far as I know, these torpedoes are always dumb-fired because their own operation pretty much makes any kind of guidance and sensors worthless. They are high-speed direct fire weapons.

The German Barracuda, which is still under development, will be a supercavitating guided torpedo. German-language source: Here!

[Bira]

I'd stat "crappy" ammo differently: just like regular ammo, but if you glitch it jams your gun.

If you really want "highly detailed" ammo types, play GURPS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Irion]

Highly detailed ammo, if your damage varies between 4 and 10. Ranging from not even a pistol to a freaking cannon.
Really?

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Highly detailed ammo, if your damage varies between 4 and 10. Ranging from not even a pistol to a freaking cannon.
Really?

I still think there is some merit to the idea of "old" ammo. I think +4AP that has been posted is too much, for half price, it's still not worth it. However, just a +2 AP at significantly reduced cost might lead a poor runner or merc to stockpile the stuff.

A +4 AP ammo should rather be almost free. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do believe, though, that the benefits of playing with greater variations of DV and AP haven't been used well enough - even within this limited system.

There could at least be:

-1DV/-4AP ammo, sort of like cheap APDS, that you could afford to spray more.

+2/+6 ammo might also be worthwhile on the long run - with +6, you're pushing towards very large pools, and buying hits, in which case that ammo wins.

[Draco18s]

5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is not half of 20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Wakshaani]

I've played with it a bit at +2 AV, but then it gets far too tempting to grab. Your mileage may vary, of course, and I'd happy to hear feedback from either a +2 or +4 version seeing wider use.

[Irion]

The point is every type of ammunition with strange modification is increasing the strain on the immersion.
I mean every SWAT sharp shooter in Shadowrun would use gel rounds.
(Why: Because they do more damage and the stun monitor is much easier to fill than physical.)

(This is something funny about most RPG if you try to play a moral dilemma but the rules just push you otherwise.)
(I am not talking about some strange rule lawyering but about the real fundation every player plays by)

[Faraday]

I mean every SWAT sharp shooter in Shadowrun would use gel rounds.
(Why: Because they do more damage and the stun monitor is much easier to fill than physical.

Erm, Not to quibble, but gel rounds to a lot less damage than a regular round.
-1 DV, +2 AP. That'd turn a ranger arms SM-4 down to 7 DV, -1 AP.

Granted, that's still a good way to knock down someone's stun track, but why not use flechette for that?

[CanRay]

Better PR for using "Low Lethality Rounds"?

[Faraday]

Better PR for using "Low Lethality Rounds"?

That'd be called Stick-n-Shock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanRay]

With the added advantage of watching the target do the "Kickin' Chicken"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Hmmm.... it seems the problem lies in the fact that there is no "situationally useful", because most of what you do always ends up strictly BETTER or WORSE.

IRL where there are far more attributes to factor in - recoil, aerodynamics, penetration, range, etc. there is undoubtedly a greater diversity. In the game, it would be nice if at least we got to a point where a choice makes sense. Only in WAR is there any ammo that gives a larger "recoil" mod.

For instance: Generally against soft targets a +DV is always desirable, because the AP hardly matters - stun track is usually shorter, anyway. So basically even with +1/-1 Ex-Ex is the best ammo against soft targets (for cost reasons). (+1.333 DV effective, exactly the same as APDS in most situations). Flechette comes second, with +0.333 DV, with the advantage that you probably will fill the stun track more reliably. (Theoretically a hit too many on the attack roll with XX could mean your guy is still standing because now both his stun and physical track are missine one box to knock him out.) Since Gel was errataed, apparently, it doesn't compete anymore, it clearly used to be the best ammo. Although I can't find the -1DV that was mentioned, earlier, it seems to be just +2 AP (S).

It's against hardened armour (ITNW) and vehicles when you need -AP, because only that enables you to actually hurt the buggers. So... APDS is still king, here. I repeat my desire for a cheaper AP round, like for instance the 4.7 or 5.7 rounds from HK / FN respectively. A -1/-3 or even a simple -2 AP would be nice at lower cost, so you could more easily afford to go Full-auto wide burst on spirits. As it is, at some point assault rifles just bite on granite against spirits. An F5 is touchy, an F6 very hard, and an F7 basically invulnerable. Then again, a -2AP round is numerically identical to Ex-Ex against spirits for actually hurting it, and then slightly inferior when applying damage. And a -1/-3 round is again the same, but even worse when applying damage.

But look at the cost:

APDS is actually fairly cheap, it's just that stupid 16F that makes it expensive.
Ex-Ex and Flechette are actually fairly expensive, but Flechettes can be bought at every street corner.
Ex ammo is actually the most cost-effective ammo, because it's almost as good as Ex-Ex against everything but spirits.

Enter Arsenal:
Frangible are TOTALLY useless.
Hollow-Point are numerically identical to Flechette, but cheaper and target B armour. Hmmm.
Shock-Lock are identical to Ex.

So, really, diversion seems pretty impossible with the system. No matter what you do, you arrive at the same numbers as long as damage and penetration are basically the same thing. There are some mild situational differences, but basically it boils down to:

Use Ex all the time from a small auto-gun, because they are cheap. (And you should have a spirit with Guard up at all times, anyway.) Ex-Ex from all single-shot weapons, because you can afford it. And big auto-weapons best use standard, unless you are up against spirits.

And that's basically it, there is no more diversion. The only thing I would consider using in addition is a cheap AP round

+0/-2, 50nY, 12R or so.

Or the aforementioned crap ammo for 5-10nY from a vehicle mounted spray and pray gun.

[Irion]

-1 DV, +2 AP.

Ah right, this was changed I guess. The old basic book says +2DV/+2AP. Thats what I was looking at.

@Brainpiercing7.62mm

(Theoretically a hit too many on the attack roll with XX could mean your guy is still standing because now both his stun and physical track are missine one box to knock him out.)

Thats what me go thinking about just using the house rule, that physical damage does inflict half of his amount as stun damage.
For example: You get shot at for 7P. You roll your body of 3 and you armor of 6 and reduce it to 4P. This means you take 4P and 2S.

[Draco18s]

Thats what me go thinking about just using the house rule, that physical damage does inflict half of his amount as stun damage.
For example: You get shot at for 7P. You roll your body of 3 and you armor of 6 and reduce it to 4P. This means you take 4P and 2S.

Combat would end up so deadly that the party would avoid it at all costs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Combat would end up so deadly that the party would avoid it at all costs.

It is already deadly enough that I tend to avoid it unless absolutely necessary. That would put the nail in the coffin, so to speak.

[Draco18s]

It is already deadly enough that I tend to avoid it unless absolutely necessary. That would put the nail in the coffin, so to speak.

Well yeah. It is already fairly deadly. Doesn't stop a lot of people though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well yeah. It is already fairly deadly. Doesn't stop a lot of people though.

Don't I know it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Draco18s]

Don't I know it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

See, I like playing the game where combat happens on a frequent basis--because I enjoy a good firefight--but I don't try to get into combat, nor do I play combat monsters (combat capable, usually).

I play combat smart. I use cover, I dodge, I conserve ammo. And most importantly: the cocky, regenerating vampire melee adept goes in first (I'd rather have a shotgun to his chest than to mine*).

*This actually happened. I was taking cover behind a bar and the vampire ran strait up to a guy and got blasted in the chest (pretty much downing him for the fight) without doing anything effective. I only got 1 kill that fight, compared to the sam's 4, but I didn't take a single box of physical.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See, I like playing the game where combat happens on a frequent basis--because I enjoy a good firefight--but I don't try to get into combat, nor do I play combat monsters (combat capable, usually).

I play combat smart. I use cover, I dodge, I conserve ammo. And most importantly: the cocky, regenerating vampire melee adept goes in first (I'd rather have a shotgun to his chest than to mine*).

*This actually happened. I was taking cover behind a bar and the vampire ran strait up to a guy and got blasted in the chest (pretty much downing him for the fight) without doing anything effective. I only got 1 kill that fight, compared to the sam's 4, but I didn't take a single box of physical.

Seems like you and I have similar play styles for combat... Having had it drilled into me in the Corps, it is really second nature for me in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)