[X] My Assistant

[Mr. Smileys]

- Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body.

this makes sense for the most part but here is the situation I was presented in a session. (All names have been changed to protect the identities of the innocent) Runner A (a long-arms specialist) is trying to take out Corp-Sec A. Corp-Sec A is wearing an armor of 7B/6I but not a helmet.

1. If Runner A makes a called shot to the head of Corp-Sec A does he still take the -7 to his dicepool?
2. Same Situation but now the Corp-Sec is wearing a +2B/+2I helmet (total armor of 9B/8I). So now if Runner A makes the same called shot to the head does he take a -2 modifier to get past the helmet or a -9?

[Yerameyahu]

RAW, it's all or nothing. There is no 'to the head'; you use the total armor. You can alter this with house rules, but it's a big balance issue. At most, you'd let #2 bypass the helmet armor bonus only, because obviously -2 DP penalty to bypass effectively 9 armor is wrong.

In most cases, it's best to just stick with the +4DV/-4DP option; it's plenty strong, and simple.

[capt.pantsless]

As far as I know, it doesn't matter what part you're shooting at, as SR doesn't have explicit hit-location mechanics (thank god). You just take the total armor-rating as a negative modifier.

So in your examples:

1.) -7 dice
2.) -9 dice

[James McMurray]

RAW, it's all or nothing. There is no 'to the head'; you use the total armor. You can alter this with house rules, but it's a big balance issue. At most, you'd let #2 bypass the helmet armor bonus only, because obviously -2 DP penalty to bypass effectively 9 armor is wrong.

In most cases, it's best to just stick with the +4DV/-4DP option; it's plenty strong, and simple.

QFT

You might say "I make a called shot to the head" but when it comes time to make your roll you have to decide if you're trying to byapass armor (-[Armor] to your pool), Increase DV (-1-4 to your pool), knock something out of their grasp (-4), or do some special effect (- whataver your GM says).

[Mr. Smileys]

Ok, thanks.

I may just end up house ruling something where if the are not wearing a helmet you only take a modifier of their armor rating/2 to bypass it.

It does not make sense that when trying to shoot at someone who is just wearing an Armor Jacket (8B/6I | 900¥) that it would take -8 to my dice pool to say "BOOM HEADSHOT".

So in my original questions it would be

1.)-4
2.)-9 (maybe only -6 {half armor +2 from helmet})

EDIT: I would also only allow this if the target was unaware of the incoming attack.

[Yerameyahu]

Not to be trying, but in that case, #2 would still be 9. You said "if the are not wearing a helmet you only take a modifier of their armor rating/2 to bypass it". That's not the same as 'always take half and add helmet, if present'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I understand that you're talking about two different versions of your house rule, not making an error.

Either way, though, I think you'd be making a balance-changing mistake. Why would anyone ever *not* 'headshot' with that rule? (Except against unarmored targets, of course.)

[Mr. Smileys]

i understand that it may make things more lethal. And after thinking about it a bit more I made an edit to my above post hoping to get it in before anyone responded.

EDIT: I would also only allow this if the target was unaware of the incoming attack.

[Yerameyahu]

You might not need that, in that specific case. They get no dodge, and the shooter can usually Take Aim (up to half skill, IIRC). Still, I dig that you may be fully *intending* to make things (even) more lethal. In that case, and bearing in mind that it breaks the SR4 no-hit-location idea, I can see replacing the existing 'Avoid Armor' called shot with your 'Headshot, Armor/2+Helmet' rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortinbras]

The way I explained it to my group is that the Increased DV doesn't come from putting the bullet exactly where you want it, but it increases your grouping making the shot more precise at the cost of net hits.
Ignoring Armour is putting the bullet where you want it. Specifically targeting portions of the body that have no armor.
When shooting for increased damage, a shot to the head may not always be the shot that will do the most damage, so the plus to DV goes to whichever part is most vulnerable at the time of the shot. Even then, a shot aimed at the head will not always hit the head, but may still hit a more vital part of the body than a normal shot without penalty.
To ignore armor entirely is a more difficult shot; Actively calling the part of the body where you want the bullet to go. That is where the -9 comes in.
That is the most accurate way I've found to describe the shot without giving firearms rules a mechanical disconnect and turning Shadowrun into a FPS.

"Headshot" has become a staple of video games, but is not always the way to go in a firefight.

[Mr. Smileys]

That is the most accurate way I've found to describe the shot without giving firearms rules a mechanical disconnect and turning Shadowrun into a FPS.

"Headshot" has become a staple of video games, but is not always the way to go in a firefight.

I am not thinking on the terms of video games, I am thinking on the terms of real life. I own quite a few firearms and go out shooting quite a bit (about twice a month) and I can reliably hit a 6 inch (about 15 cm) diameter disk with a pistol at 70 yeards (64 meters) with open/iron sights. The human head on average has a greater overall diameter then my 6 inch target.

I only consider myself an average shot with a pistol, with a rifle i can do even better with open sights out to 150 yards (137.16 meters)

[redwulf25]

I am not thinking on the terms of video games, I am thinking on the terms of real life. I own quite a few firearms and go out shooting quite a bit (about twice a month) and I can reliably hit a 6 inch (about 15 cm) diameter disk with a pistol at 70 yeards (64 meters) with open/iron sights. The human head on average has a greater overall diameter then my 6 inch target.

I only consider myself an average shot with a pistol, with a rifle i can do even better with open sights out to 150 yards (137.16 meters)

How well can you hit it when the six inch disk is moving and shooting back?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am not thinking on the terms of video games, I am thinking on the terms of real life. I own quite a few firearms and go out shooting quite a bit (about twice a month) and I can reliably hit a 6 inch (about 15 cm) diameter disk with a pistol at 70 yeards (64 meters) with open/iron sights. The human head on average has a greater overall diameter then my 6 inch target.

I only consider myself an average shot with a pistol, with a rifle i can do even better with open sights out to 150 yards (137.16 meters)

And yet, about half of the head contains nothing critical to survival. So a headshot is not intrinsically more lethal than a Mid-line Torso shot is. In fact, I would opt for the Torso more often than not. Head Shots sharply decrease the amount of surface area you have to aim at at range. Even teh slightest flinch can result in a complete miss.

Besides, a 6-Inch Disk is fairly large for precision targeting purposes. Though it sounds like you are pretty good with that Pistol, hitting a 6-Inch disk with a rifle round, with open sights, at 150 Yards, is not actually all that good. I know Individuals that can keyhole 5-shot groups at triple that range with open sights. Though, I will admit, they are likely the exception, rather than the rule.

Yerameyahu has a very valid point, though. Reducing the difficulty for headshots will only encourage headshots. The called Shot Option to remove Dice to Increase Damage is the best way to go, unless the trarget is wearing very little armor. Of course, assuming your GM would allow it, you could possibly combine both rules. Reduce your Dice Pool by 4 for extra Damage, and then by Armor Rating to remove the Armor's Defense. Would require a pretty hefty dice pool, but would be well worth it in the end.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I am not thinking on the terms of video games, I am thinking on the terms of real life. I own quite a few firearms and go out shooting quite a bit (about twice a month) and I can reliably hit a 6 inch (about 15 cm) diameter disk with a pistol at 70 yeards (64 meters) with open/iron sights. The human head on average has a greater overall diameter then my 6 inch target.

I only consider myself an average shot with a pistol, with a rifle i can do even better with open sights out to 150 yards (137.16 meters)

Attempts to make the game more into RL ™ don't go often well.
The game does a lot of abastractions in exchange for playability and I think it works fine the way it is.
Just saying that sometimes house rules might break your game and you end up having to add another house rule to fix the first and the cycle goes on and on and on...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And on, and on, and on.................... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[James McMurray]

My advice is to ask your group how they feel about making head shots easier. If they jump for it, great. If they don't want it, don't bother. But if you do use it, count how often you find yourself either a) headshotting a PC or b) finding some sort of justification for not doing it because it's too lethal. If that yardstick comes up long, take the rule back out.

There's no house rule that can destroy a game unless the group refuses to evaluate it and change it if needed.

[Makki]

what many people don't get is, that you role first, then discribe what happend and not the other way around.
Your dicepool is your ability and the circumstances and your result is what happened. Fairly easy.

wrong: If you "aim for the head" and miss, what happens with the bullet? ~75%chance it hits the wall, 25% you shot too low and hit the torso. But how can you know that upfront? You can't...

right: role dice with modifiers (see called shot as extra aiming), have 5 net hits and 15 DV and cheer about your headshot

[Saint Sithney]

Ignoring armor is pretty niche, and only good for fletchette. Impact is usually lower than ballistic armor, so there's less DP penalty, and with armor ignored, the +5AP for narrow spread is nullified. In fact, there's nothing rules wise keeping a guy from calling a shot to bypass armor with a wide-spread, burst of fletchette, to completely ignore +9AP on three targets within one meter of each other.

Shotgun mouthwash for the win.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ignoring armor is pretty niche, and only good for fletchette. Impact is usually lower than ballistic armor, so there's less DP penalty, and with armor ignored, the +5AP for narrow spread is nullified. In fact, there's nothing rules wise keeping a guy from calling a shot to bypass armor with a wide-spread, burst of fletchette, to completely ignore +9AP on three targets within one meter of each other.

Shotgun mouthwash for the win.

Heh... Well, you're right, of course... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

I think the +4DV/-4DP is actually too strong, since +4DV on an attack is typically worth about 12 DP.

Personally I think that "called shots" are suitably worked into the regular shooting mechanic, since getting more hits is worth more DV, and armor itself has to be rolled, resulting in situations that would otherwise (albeit unintentionally) appear to be a called shot.

That is, if you get 6 hits on your rifle shot (~12 DV), and the other guy only rolls 2 hits on his Body + Armor, you pretty much just shot him in the face.

Since the rules are abstract enough to allow that effective outcome already, I think that adding in a way to be even more effective is simply searching for abuse.

That said, trading -1DP for -1 Armor (up to some reasonable limit -- perhaps Skill Rating) is probably a fair trade, since that's exchanging one rolled die for another rolled die.

SR4 simply doesn't have a mechanic that would support called shots very well, otherwise. Not like SR3, where armor simply made the target number lower without actually interfering with how many dice were rolled or how much damage the shot otherwise caused.

[capt.pantsless]

Personally I think that "called shots" are suitably worked into the regular shooting mechanic, since getting more hits is worth more DV, and armor itself has to be rolled, resulting in situations that would otherwise (albeit unintentionally) appear to be a called shot.

True, but sometimes you need to inject someone with a narcojet dart - that's the kinda thing I find that called-shots are best reserved for.

[James McMurray]

You need 2 net hits to penetrate armor with an injection dart. Calling a shot will almost always make that harder, not easier.

[Dez384]

If you make a called shot on a long shot, you could mess with some heavily armored dudes. Sure, you'd need good edge to pull it off, but it'd be funny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

The armor values are definitely abstracted. Your head may be more vulnerable to a concussive blow than your torso, but the helmet is also a lot thicker than most body armor. The +2B/2I armor of a helmet takes into account how much that helmet goes overall towards protecting you from damage in general. Like if you were to grab your shotgun and go into a gun fight in your tighty whities and a riot helmet, some of the bullets are going to hit your head and shadowrun just abstracts this. If you were to assign armor to areas you would also need to give adjusted values to some (all) armor. It sounds a bit like how GURPS does things. Great system but tedious.

I would not bother with making it more real. In real life guns are very deadly.

[sabs]

Also, if he's making a Called Shot to my head, do I get bonuses to my defensive roll? After all making him miss is way easier if he's only aiming at my head, instead of my whole body. Also, I have armored arms, why can't I use them as cover?

Making headshots easier is silly, the game is plenty lethal as is.

[Mr. Smileys]

Also, if he's making a Called Shot to my head, do I get bonuses to my defensive roll? After all making him miss is way easier if he's only aiming at my head, instead of my whole body. Also, I have armored arms, why can't I use them as cover?

Making headshots easier is silly, the game is plenty lethal as is.

no you would not get bonuses to your defensive roll because as i stated in my earlier post, I will only allow this modification of the called shot rules if the target is unaware of the attack and thus by the rules on page 159 of SR4A

Defender Unaware of Attack
If the defender is unaware of an incoming attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat