[X] My Assistant

[Dez384]

Sorry just got back from vacation. Now what I was saying is that in game the first three character are acting like human beings (in the game). The next two are just meta-gaming. The third should get Karma for "Rule of Cool".

The omnicidal maniac in my group would argue that buying guns bigger than his head is acting like a human being; it's what he'd do in real life.

[LurkerOutThere]

200k seems excessive unless they're likely to burn through all or most of (or more than) the up-front cash over the course of the run.

I havn't actually crunched out the math for next session but at the very least their going to need access to a an aircraft and a pilot for same. That will set them back quite a bit up front as this isn't the sort of job they'll just be able to rent one for. Other then that we'll see how it goes, see above commentary about always overpay vice underpay.

[nezumi]

The pay really does a lot to define the setting. Stingy pay (and/or high expenses) can set the dreary, dystopian setting. They have to eat dog food and live in a tiny flat that smells like diapers. Lots of pay results in PCs who, really, don't have stresses about cash any more. They're now high-rollers, even if they aren't actually any good at what they do (and they may quickly find themselves running more of a 007 campaign).

Both are valid game styles, and completely up to your players. Unfortunately, if most income is in cash, that means the dark, dreary setting is also limited in available gear. This is why I tend to give money and give gear, each separately, so you can have a million nuyen tank and live in your rat hole. Also giving gear I think tends to give a little more story to it, because you didn't just buy it out of a catalog, you found it (or it found you).

[Irion]

Unfortunately, if most income is in cash, that means the dark, dreary setting is also limited in available gear.

Shouldn't it be?

so you can have a million nuyen tank and live in your rat hole.

Well, a million dollar tank for which you have no place to hide it or even fuel to drive around.

Thats what I meant with the gear and the life style should match.
You can't be Robin Hood and Bruce Wayne in one person.
If you go for Robin Hood you will stick with second hand Ware and the mage will rejoice if he finds the cash to bind a force 5 spirit. (Or even increase the level of his lodge)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Shouldn't it be?


Well, a million dollar tank for which you have no place to hide it or even fuel to drive around.

Thats what I meant with the gear and the life style should match.
You can't be Robin Hood and Bruce Wayne in one person.
If you go for Robin Hood you will stick with second hand Ware and the mage will rejoice if he finds the cash to bind a force 5 spirit. (Or even increase the level of his lodge)

There is your Disconnect. In most stories I have seen with Robin Hood, he had a fair amount of wealth, he just did not spend it on himself. He gave it to those who had nothing. Thus the Term "Hooding."

[Ascalaphus]

Robin Hood plays in a universe where the quality of your equipment isn't anywhere near as important as skill. In SR equipment is a big part of a character's strength.

[Irion]

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

[Irion]

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wealth he couldn't use, because you can't buy stuff if the guys selling stuff would arrest you...
In any event he would still be poor compared to Bruce Wayne.

And yet, no one turned him in... Why, because he was more popular than the reward money that was being offerred. I would say that he did not NEED money to do what he wanted. Money means absolutely nothing if you have everything that you need or want in life.

As for the comment above by Ascalaphus, you are right, equipment plays a large part in Shadowrun. I fall somewhere in the middle. If you are going to have that warehouse with the big guns, planes and that tank, you really should not be living a street lifestyle. I prefer the big rewards, and I like blowing 100,000 nuyen on a party prior to hitting the Mitsuhama zero zone. You will never amass the credibility, reputation, and the equipment necessary, for your continued survival, to be hired for that Zero Zone Op, if you are constantly scraping by on that peanuts for pay scheme that I often see touted as the norm. As has been often said... if that is the case, I am going to go steel me some cars, and mug old ladies for their retirement checks. Why? Because it pays more and has less of a down side. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

Shouldn't it be?

Again, it completely depends on the sort of game you want to play. But 'available equipment' and 'dreary setting' are only tangentally related when it comes to taste. I love to play games with combat helicopters, big explosions, cutting edge cyberware and city-shaking magic - but still have my characters live in the slums like they're extras in Blade Runner.

Upgrading equipment is also how you upgrade characters. No one wants to play a game with zero advancement. However, character advancement is about the character. Again, completely independent from the setting.

[deek]

In my last campaign, I was stingy on the money, but the runners were corporate black ops that had a high lifestyle compensated by the corp. Money was really not a concern and I found it interesting that in the year and a half we played, no one really voiced a desire to upgrade their starting gear (including 'ware). I think the standard starting build doesn't really foster the need to get a bunch of new toys. My players were pretty much powerhouses from the start and only invested in minor tweaks to their characters.

I'd say, to start, figure on either 5-10K per run per player or lowball the hell out of them and see how they respond (this is basically talking to your players to find out what sort of game they are interested in playing). Some may not care how much they are being paid while others may be wanting to save up for something or have debts or high lifestyle to maintain.

[nezumi]

Excepting the rigger, I've seen that a lot with SR3. A lot of that is because cash is flush at chargen, but skimpy during play, and the price for upgrades increases exponentially. It's rather disappointing, and I was happy to see SR4 flatten that curve out a little bit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Excepting the rigger, I've seen that a lot with SR3. A lot of that is because cash is flush at chargen, but skimpy during play, and the price for upgrades increases exponentially. It's rather disappointing, and I was happy to see SR4 flatten that curve out a little bit.

It has gotten a LOT better with 4th Edition, to be sure.

[TheOOB]

I'd say, to start, figure on either 5-10K per run per player or lowball the hell out of them and see how they respond (this is basically talking to your players to find out what sort of game they are interested in playing). Some may not care how much they are being paid while others may be wanting to save up for something or have debts or high lifestyle to maintain.

You mean 5-10k isn't lowballing a lot? Lifestyle, ammunition, supplies, consumables, and bribe money alone can cost 10k a month in some cases(easily over 5k), so you'll never get significantly better gear at that rate. Your hackers(and riggers especially) hit their skill glass ceiling awefully quick, and street samurai are not too far behind. Without high grade drones and 'ware to look forward to how are these characters going to continue to advance?

[kzt]

Yup. I've burned 15k of equipment in a run more than a few times. Ammo, explosives, bribes, props, IDs, drones, etc. Hell, I think I had drones fire that much in ammunition at least once.

[deek]

You mean 5-10k isn't lowballing a lot? Lifestyle, ammunition, supplies, consumables, and bribe money alone can cost 10k a month in some cases(easily over 5k), so you'll never get significantly better gear at that rate. Your hackers(and riggers especially) hit their skill glass ceiling awefully quick, and street samurai are not too far behind. Without high grade drones and 'ware to look forward to how are these characters going to continue to advance?

I should have really clarified. 5-10k a run in a campaign with 3-4 runs per month is what I was saying. Obviously, if you are only doing one run a month, 5-10k is certainly lowballing.

My players have never taken more than one lifestyle and I don't think its ever been more than 5k a month. So, my normal stance is give them enough runs to cover their lifestyle (whether they accept them or not is their issue, not mine) a few times over, each month.

[TheOOB]

I should have really clarified. 5-10k a run in a campaign with 3-4 runs per month is what I was saying. Obviously, if you are only doing one run a month, 5-10k is certainly lowballing.

My players have never taken more than one lifestyle and I don't think its ever been more than 5k a month. So, my normal stance is give them enough runs to cover their lifestyle (whether they accept them or not is their issue, not mine) a few times over, each month.

Lifestyle is usually only a small portion of the money runners pay. Regardless, you still need to consider the nuyen to karma ratio. Assuming 7.5k a run, and 6 karma a run, your only at 1.25k nuyen to karma, which is about half of what a point of karma is usually worth.

[deek]

Lifestyle is usually only a small portion of the money runners pay. Regardless, you still need to consider the nuyen to karma ratio. Assuming 7.5k a run, and 6 karma a run, your only at 1.25k nuyen to karma, which is about half of what a point of karma is usually worth.

Good point. I've never tried to balance nuyen to karma in my games and don't do an exchange between the two after chargen.

Now, I do talk with my players before a campaign is started and chargen occurs, so expectations are set. Most of the games I run, are done bi-weekly and its normal for me to accelerate xp/karma awards in anythin we play. Its just the nature of gaming as a working adult with family obligations. The last two SR4 games I've run, I've given between 7-14 karma PER SESSION. Everyone felt that worked, so I didn't need to follow published guidelines. As for nuyen, I just check in with my players from time to time, and adjust, if needed.

I think I've had success for two reason: 1) I don't exchange karma for cash after chargen and 2) chargen is so complex that none of my players have challenged me on the inequalities between BPs and karma values. They know that after chargen, we play by a different set of rules and they are okay with that.

[CanRay]

Another important question that doesn't get asked enough (In my mind, at least) is HOW 'Runners are paid, and how they clean the money so that they can spend it using their Fake or Legal SINs.

After all, if you're a stock boy at a Stuffer Shack due to worries of Technomancers hacking the AZT Beanpicker-Class Auto-Shelver Drones (Yes, I'm going to The Special Hell, I know), how do you explain that you're driving that tricked out BMW 400GT instead of taking the Bus or maybe a Dodge Scoot?

That thought is one of the reasons I made "The Accountant From Hell", BTW. His SINner job was a Forensic Accountant before...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Another important question that doesn't get asked enough (In my mind, at least) is HOW 'Runners are paid, and how they clean the money so that they can spend it using their Fake or Legal SINs.

After all, if you're a stock boy at a Stuffer Shack due to worries of Technomancers hacking the AZT Beanpicker-Class Auto-Shelver Drones (Yes, I'm going to The Special Hell, I know), how do you explain that you're driving that tricked out BMW 400GT instead of taking the Bus or maybe a Dodge Scoot?

That thought is one of the reasons I made "The Accountant From Hell", BTW. His SINner job was a Forensic Accountant before...

Beenpicker Class Auto-Shelver Drones? Holy smokes, where can I get me a pair of those? That is just awesome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for the answer... I accept Certified Cred, or Kind, your choice...
Forensic Accounting..... Nice skill to have in the Shadows...

[CanRay]

Hey, before Drones fell out of vogue, I'm sure they did all kinds of jobs that now have to be done by lazy, stupid, low-paid metahumans now. On the bright side, that increases the employment rate and increases purchases, so not always a bad thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The AZT Beanpicker, Kong Wal-Mart ShelfMaster, and Horizon Anthropomorphic Stocking Clerk (With Life-Like© friendly smiling Troll face!) were probably very popular, and can be easily found in second-hand drone shops everywhere. Handy if you're a Mercenary Crew that needs to ensure that their ammunition stocks are sorted exactly right! Or even if you just want your Smuggler-Modified T-Bird loaded as efficiently as possible.

Certified Cred is good, but still electronic and potentially traceable. Serial numbers on the Nuyen (Just like on RL Bills) would tell people where the money came from, which serial number of the credstick it's on came from, and so on. Electronic Money is a great way to trace things still. If you just take the 'stick from Mr. Johnson, you're trusting that he's already cleaned it for you sufficiently, which may or may not be done, either due to ineptitude ("Forget about worrying about professionals, it's the amateurs you have to fear!") or a line-up to screwing the team over ("The 'Run isn't over until the Johnson has screwed you.").

The advantage is that it only exists in electronic format, so you can just deposit it (Exactly like moving a computer file, because, essentially, that's what it is), and move it around. A lot. Even passing it around in odd amounts from 'Stick to 'Stick will muddy the trail a great deal.

A bunch of Old, Non-Sequential, Beat Up UCAS$1000 bills are bulky, but don't have the electronic trail that nuyen has.

And, again, it all comes down to investigators spotting changes in lifestyle that make no sense.

[Dez384]

When is it appropriate to pay an advance to the runners? It would make sense if there would need to be a lot of preparation done before the run gaining specific equipment. However, if Runners are deniable assets, I wouldn't want to pay before a team finishes the job. My former teammates never let me, but there were many times I wanted to walk away from jobs before finishing them. (I thought that the payout wouldn't be worth finishing the job and that we should quit while we were ahead.)

[CanRay]

Depends on the Shadowrun, depends on the Mr. Johnson, depends on the culture of the Shadows on the area you're in.

IIRC, Seattle is a Half-Up-Front Traditional area.

One thing the Johnson can give in lieu of money is Intel, which is worth more than Nuyen sometimes.

Deniable or not, 'Runners also work hard to ensure they get paid. There's a lot of suggestions for this in Vice, which I'll have to read again when/if I play "The Accountant From Hell".

EDIT: You're also dealing with people that shoot other people in the face for money for a living. Are you sure you want to stiff them?

[Daishi]

When is it appropriate to pay an advance to the runners? It would make sense if there would need to be a lot of preparation done before the run gaining specific equipment. However, if Runners are deniable assets, I wouldn't want to pay before a team finishes the job.

There's the flip-side to that. The runners know they are deniable assets and will want proof of good faith. Putting up a large advance is a tangible demonstration that the Johnson is making a straight deal. The amount that a team can request up front will depend a great deal on their reputation. Teams with a reputation for cutting and running don't get any advance. Mr. Johnson won't even pay for their drinks. Pros with a rock solid rep for getting it done might expect half their fee up front before they'll take Mr. Johnson seriously.

[LurkerOutThere]

When is it appropriate to pay an advance to the runners? It would make sense if there would need to be a lot of preparation done before the run gaining specific equipment. However, if Runners are deniable assets, I wouldn't want to pay before a team finishes the job. My former teammates never let me, but there were many times I wanted to walk away from jobs before finishing them. (I thought that the payout wouldn't be worth finishing the job and that we should quit while we were ahead.)

We actually had a big discussion on this in my group as part of the recent mission, here's kind of the consensus which is more or less what i've always used.

As part of the negotiation process runners can ask for a portion of the money up front. J's can also offer a portion up front as a sign of good faith. Because of the professional nature of Shadowrunners runners who agree to a job, take money for said job, are then fail to perform it are consider pariahs. There can be exceptions to this is massive important details are obscured For example, you don't necissarily need to be told who owns the truck your being paid to destroy with all of it's contents, you do need to be told if that truck is hauling infants. So generally speaking I would always allow thsoe with social skills to devote a couple of successes to getting paid some up front.

If a J is a complete unknown in the shadows the fixer will usually as a condition of the work require some money to be paid in advance or the job paid in full in escrow with a trustworthy source for all sides (usually the fixer, but occasionally an organization.)

If the job has "stupid runner tricks" (no civilian casualties, no property damage, job must be accomplished within a half hour of the brief etc etc) there should almost always be an upfront payment to compensate for the hassle.

Now a lot of this highlights what i feel separates professional runners and mercs from amateurs. A runner once they have accepted a job and gotten paid for it feels obligated to complete the job or their rep will suffer. Conversely a runner that protects their clients anonymity and honors their wishes where reasonable reaps the rewards of sucha reputation.