[X] My Assistant

[Daishi]

Then tell you that you can use the same rules and apply them to the MMG and HMG, with the result being an MMG style Minigun, and an HMG style Minigun. As I indicatged aboveabove. Creating those 2 Miniguns is not Houseruling, it is using the example they gave (IN THE BOOK) to create such a weapon and applying it to what they meant it to be used for, in this case MMG Miniguns and HMG Miniguns.

Any new gear fabricated out of thin-air is house-ruled gear. If I put forward a totally new plain-jane SA Light Pistol, regardless of how consistent it is with other Light Pistols, that's still house-ruled gear fabricated independent of existing rules. All they say is "Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns." There's no talk about "hey, make your own using the vindicator as a template." The only line in question is a restriction, not a prescription, that just sits there at the end of the panel coming out of nowhere. If you want to spit out some new gear to fill the now obvious hole, I'm right there with you, but I'm still gonna have to pitch it to the GM as a house rule that I just eye-balled together.

Again, I'm arguing that the only two weapon "construction" rules on the books are vestigial rules with no active bearing on the game, but if you want to say that they are there with an actual purpose regarding new guns, then that only gives weight to the argument that they are "construction" and not Modification rules. Either way, HV mods for LMGs etc are legit.

Daishi, the same could be said for HV firing rates… but it's not. The mod in question is explicitly High Velocity, not HV-like.

1. If you're going to house rule, all bets are already off. No point even talking about it.
2. I don't agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In addition, I think the direction matters: I'm on the side of limitation, you're on the side of not.
3. I think the mod *should* drop the damage code, personally. The autocannons are non-miniguns that happen to use the same rate. *shrug* Anyway, the fact that there exist only SMG/AR HV examples is amply clear for me on the precedent issue.

The autocannons aren't described as minigun-like. They say "Use the rules for miniguns." By a strict reading, that means they can't exist. But there's no point in pulling the the "construction" rules back in. I'm just applying the same logic to the Modification rules. The HV modification gives its own restrictions and then turns the applicable firearm into an HV weapon, and then references the rules for HV weapons. I didn't pull in the minigun construction rules through a backdoor, and I'm not about to do the same to the Modification rules which already have their own restriction sets.

1. My point there was that your game balance concerns would lie in the territory of house rules since there is no minigun modification to worry about.
2. Fair enough. But favouring limitation in any ambiguous situation is a commitment to preference that I don't share. I just think in this case that the only two weapon construction rules in the game serve no viable purpose and it's sloppy to try to pull one of them in through the backdoor to the Modification rules just because that increases limitations.
3. The SuperMach and the HVAR are only precedents for stock models, though. They have no explicit bearing on after-market modifications.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Any new gear fabricated out of thin-air is house-ruled gear. If I put forward a totally new plain-jane SA Light Pistol, regardless of how consistent it is with other Light Pistols, that's still house-ruled gear fabricated independent of existing rules. All they say is "Only light, medium, or heavy machine guns can be constructed as miniguns." There's no talk about "hey, make your own using the vindicator as a template." The only line in question is a restriction, not a prescription, that just sits there at the end of the panel coming out of nowhere. If you want to spit out some new gear to fill the now obvious hole, I'm right there with you, but I'm still gonna have to pitch it to the GM as a house rule that I just eye-balled together.

The autocannons aren't described as minigun-like. They say "Use the rules for miniguns." By a strict reading, that means they can't exist. But there's no point in pulling the the "construction" rules back in. I'm just applying the same logic to the Modification rules. The HV modification gives its own restrictions and then turns the applicable firearm into an HV weapon, and then references the rules for HV weapons. I didn't pull in the minigun construction rules through a backdoor, and I'm not about to do the same to the Modification rules which already have their own restriction sets.

1. My point there was that your game balance concerns would lie in the territory of house rules since there is no minigun modification to worry about.
2. Fair enough. But favouring limitation in any ambiguous situation is a commitment to preference that I don't share. I just think in this case that the only two weapon construction rules in the game serve no viable purpose and it's sloppy to try to pull one of them in through the backdoor to the Modification rules just because that increases limitations.
3. The SuperMach and the HVAR are only precedents for stock models, though. They have no explicit bearing on after-market modifications.

The point is that you are not applying Logic here Daishi... You are taking them in isolation. Such things are not fabricated out of thin air.

They tell you what to do, and you choose not to do it. There is a difference...

But No worries. In the end we apparently come to roughly the same place.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Cyber Scanners will note your 'ware. It'll outline the restricted/illegal/dangerous stuff. Bottom line, illegal or dangerous cyberware is just not something you take in certain games.

Making the "game" shadowrun entirely ridiculous. Now you can only play in the barrens or as salarymen. Congratulations. (Or you can play mages and mages, of course, at which point there will be glow-moss EVERYWHERE.)

Sorry for necroing that particular point, but the scanner just kills the game, IMHO, unless you make it quite uncommon. (E.g. house-rule it to be REALLY expensive.)

[Summerstorm]

Hm... since when does a scanner stop a runner? You could have just high quality stuff, licenses for shit on fake SIN's, pre-hacked the scanner or database, asked your doc before the implantation to make it look like something else (yeah no rules for that at the moment... but come on, what gm just says NO?), bribed your way into the are or infiltrated it through other ways.

I am really not worried about a scanner.

What i am worried about is that detecting infra-structure finding all comunication-nodes which doesn't belong and patroling minibots and such.

[Socinus]

This is virtually standard issue for many of my characters

P93 Praetor E SMG, costs 850 out of the box and has a 50 round clip. Slap Additional Clip on one and you've got basically a 100 round capacity for 1,700 nuyen. Add the obligatory smartlink and you can, as a free action, switch between the clips. For an extra 500, you can up the weapon's capacity with Extended Clip to 126 rounds. By adding Gas Vent 3, Foregrip, and a Shock Pad, you can bring the weapon up to a recoil compensation of 8.

The total cost of this is 2,700 at an Availably of 11.

If you've got some extra cash, load it up with Narcoject and Capsule rounds (A full load will cost you ~6,600). Suppressive Fire a group of guards, duck behind cover, and listen for the thumping.

Even with standard ammo, you can load this gun on a Monday and shoot it until Friday without needing to worry about reloading.

[Faraday]

Making the "game" shadowrun entirely ridiculous. Now you can only play in the barrens or as salarymen. Congratulations. (Or you can play mages and mages, of course, at which point there will be glow-moss EVERYWHERE.)

Sorry for necroing that particular point, but the scanner just kills the game, IMHO, unless you make it quite uncommon. (E.g. house-rule it to be REALLY expensive.)

I agree. If I put players through a scanner it's a big part of the run and not a common affair. They're largely for airports and high security areas, sensitive border crossing, etc. There should also also alternatives to simply walking through it, like hacking the thing, or just avoiding the checkpoint. Also, again, sometimes you just want players getting their Matrix action on.

This is virtually standard issue for many of my characters

*P93 Praetor E SMG stuff*

I love the Praetor, I really do. But it IS a very illegal military gun in most places. Don't get caught.

[Saint Sithney]

So? Again, you're not going to hit (let alone 'OKO') 4 targets a round anyway, and FA can already do 3. You'd need 4 targets within 1 meter of each other, and you've got 11 points of recoil and -0/-2/-4/-6 from multiple targets. It *can* be done, but only by shifting a lot of resources away from other places, and the benefit isn't worth it.

You could walk the fire back and forth between two targets.

This is really the only way to get two attacks on two targets in a single IP besides shotgun choke or area attacks.

[Saint Sithney]

I love the Praetor, I really do. But it IS a very illegal military gun in most places. Don't get caught.

It's not particularly more illegal, just harder to come by. Illegal and rare does turn heads though..

[Faraday]

It's not particularly more illegal, just harder to come by. Illegal and rare does turn heads though..

It's specifically designed and built for UN peace keeping forces. It's not just restricted, it's a *forbidden* item. Meaning it is basically impossible to carry one legally.
I will quote: "A forbidden item may never be legally purchased or owned, let alone transported or used, by a private person. Don’t get caught."

Granted, this only applies by jurisdiction. You can open carry in the barrens and no one will care. But you'd better hide that thing well if you get anywhere near decent civilization.

[Saint Sithney]

It's not just restricted, it's a *forbidden* item.

I meant, not particularly more illegal than any other forbidden weapon/accessory/ammo/mod/electronics. I suppose it is more innately threatening to have a forbidden gun than it is to have, say, a tag eraser.

Stoner-Ares "Shredder" Minigun (MMG). Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 16F, Cost: 10,000
Stoner-Ares "Screamer" Minigun (HMG). Damage: 7p, AP: -3, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 22F, Cost: 18,000

As for references to the Vanquisher and the Vigilant Autocannons... They function LIKE Miniguns... How hard is that? The work LIKE a minigun does. Simple...

RAW Gatling-style weaponry exists. You just have to go to Germany to get it.

Ruhrmetall R506 Balmung (MMG) Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: 0(1) Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 18F, Cost: 11,000¥

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

RAW Gatling-style weaponry exists. You just have to go to Germany to get it.

Ruhrmetall R506 Balmung (MMG) Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: 0(1) Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 18F, Cost: 11,000¥

Sweet... Too bad I am not in Germany...
Oh Well... Maybe we will get an English Conversion eventually (Though I am not holding my breath)...
Nice to know that I was not all that far off... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Socinus]

It's specifically designed and built for UN peace keeping forces. It's not just restricted, it's a *forbidden* item. Meaning it is basically impossible to carry one legally.
I will quote: "A forbidden item may never be legally purchased or owned, let alone transported or used, by a private person. Don’t get caught."

Granted, this only applies by jurisdiction. You can open carry in the barrens and no one will care. But you'd better hide that thing well if you get anywhere near decent civilization.

Per RAW, the final package has an Availability of 11. That isn't forbidden or even restricted.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Per RAW, the final package has an Availability of 11. That isn't forbidden or even restricted.

Seeing as how it starts at 11F, that should be some trick. The "F" in the Availability Code indicates that it is Forbidden... Which means you cannot buy it legally, nor get a license for it. Get caught with one at your own peril.

[Mäx]

Per RAW, the final package has an Availability of 11. That isn't forbidden or even restricted.

I would like like to know where you wound this wonderfull mod that lets you drop F out of the weapons original availability (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There are no non-restricted guns in this game(tasers and super squirt don't count as guns)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The "F" in the Availability Code indicates that it is Forbidden Fire at Will...

Which means if the cops catch you you might just as well use the damn thing.

Interestingly, those codes all don't count for Corporate security or other bigger organisations, since I'm sure they carry plenty of F items around with them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Which also means you just need the right ID in practical gaming, even though you might never be legally allowed to get a license for one.

(I'm open to being disproven, but....)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which means if the cops catch you you might just as well use the damn thing.

Interestingly, those codes all don't count for Corporate security or other bigger organisations, since I'm sure they carry plenty of F items around with them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Which also means you just need the right ID in practical gaming, even though you might never be legally allowed to get a license for one.

(I'm open to being disproven, but....)

This is actually pretty true. But then again, those Corporate Goons do not own the weapons (or other "F" rated items) that they use, they are likely issued them. It is a lot like the Current Military. You can carry illegal weapons, but you do not actually own them, and are only allowed to use them within the purviews of your job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Actually having a License for an "F" rated weapon would be somewhat of a Red Flag in my opinion... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hida Tsuzua]

Which means if the cops catch you you might just as well use the damn thing.

Interestingly, those codes all don't count for Corporate security or other bigger organisations, since I'm sure they carry plenty of F items around with them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Which also means you just need the right ID in practical gaming, even though you might never be legally allowed to get a license for one.

(I'm open to being disproven, but....)

From what I can figure out, the difference between R and F is that you can buy Fake Licenses for R and civilians often have real licenses for R. Therefore R items are decently common and check out after a simple license query. Fs are noticed and have clear quide lines. I think it's a tad silly to call the military for a SMG, but I could see a SMG that only on-duty soldiers can legally use. I guess I see it as the difference between a carrying a concealed pistol with a conceal carry permit and a carrying around a M16.

While you might be able to buy "lol I'm a UCAS soldier" fake sin and license, I do think soldiers using F stuff only applies while on duty (just like soldiers in the US don't carry M16s when they shop at the local grocery store). It makes getting away with it more troublesome. Then again the legality system in SR is messed up before you reach extraterritoriality.

[Summerstorm]

Aye, the point is: who you are, and who do you work for?

For example:
You can have very well a "license" to be a killer-cyborg, loaded with illegal crap and heavy weaponry and biological weapons. BUT, you are effectively PROPERTY of your corp for that. Neither the state nor other corporation will have you enter their areas. You are only aknowledged and of use on corp property.

Same with weapons: As long as you are on YOUR ground you can do whatever you want. Outfit your guards with miniguns? Sure why not. You just can't bring it into the UCAS.

Overall if you can "just" go undercover as... say a "Firewatch" member, no one on any Ares domain will question you having weapon-foci, Move-by-wire, Laser eyes and carrying a grenade launcher. Just make it SEEM legit *g* and follow protocol.

[Daishi]

This is virtually standard issue for many of my characters

P93 Praetor E SMG *snip*

I went the other way with the Praetor as a standard. Take the Electronic Firing and Flashlight options, put in Integral Suppressor, Chameleon Coating and a Foregrip as mods, and then round it out with Smart Gun System and Cyber Safety as accessories. Y3215 and avail 12F (the Praetor is already F, so may as well take the F suppressor). If you have a Strength of 6+, that's enough to cover the recoil on two short or one long burst. It makes for a good sneaking around gun (-7 on Perception to locate the shooter) and can reasonably stashed in very useful places. Like a messenger bag or a smuggling compartment on a bike (both EM shielded to block casual scans).

A similar stealth variant of the Ares Alpha is a typical primary weapon for runs in my crew. Suppressor, Chameleon Coating, Personalized Grip for the modifications. Air Burst Link, Cyber Safety, Low Light Flashlight, Folding Stock, and (if allowed by the GM) an Underbarrel Weight.

We love the integral suppressor for its extra reduction against Perception tests (even if it does hoover mod slots), and Chameleon Coating is the norm for all our long-arms to keep the Ruthenium Polymers on our infiltration suits at full rating.

[Socinus]

I would like like to know where you wound this wonderfull mod that lets you drop F out of the weapons original availability (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There are no non-restricted guns in this game(tasers and super squirt don't count as guns)

Gah! The generator I use doesnt have it listed as F (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I just checked Arsenal, you're right

[Mäx]

Gah! The generator I use doesnt have it listed as F (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

And you didn't find it at all weird or suspicious that an SMG had an avail of 11 with no R or F there?

[Saint Sithney]

We love the integral suppressor for its extra reduction against Perception tests (even if it does hoover mod slots), and Chameleon Coating is the norm for all our long-arms to keep the Ruthenium Polymers on our infiltration suits at full rating.

That's one of the things that makes the HK-227X such a winner. Since it has an integral suppressor standard, it has more free slots for stuff like manual breakdown. If you need to get a gun in the front door, breakdown is the business.

[Faraday]

That's one of the things that makes the HK-227X such a winner. Since it has an integral suppressor standard, it has more free slots for stuff like manual breakdown. If you need to get a gun in the front door, breakdown is the business.

Agreed. Manual breakdown is one of my favorite mods. For subtle firepower, I like bringing Ares Sliverguns. Sure the ammo is expensive and sucks against armor, it's still better overall than an SMGs using flechette.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agreed. Manual breakdown is one of my favorite mods. For subtle firepower, I like bringing Ares Sliverguns. Sure the ammo is expensive and sucks against armor, it's still better overall than an SMGs using flechette.

And you can always mod the Slivergun with FA if you like... And Dual Clips if you really need it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faraday]

And you can always mod the Slivergun with FA if you like... And Dual Clips if you really need it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Suppressive fire in a +0 concealability package *drool*. Granted, you only get 2 IPs worth of that without improving ammo count. >_>