[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Suppressive fire in a +0 concealability package *drool*. Granted, you only get 2 IPs worth of that without improving ammo count. >_>

Indeed, but it is very nice to have a a last ditch backup...
By increasing the ammmo count of both Magazines, you can suppress for 3 IP's...

[Daishi]

That's one of the things that makes the HK-227X such a winner. Since it has an integral suppressor standard, it has more free slots for stuff like manual breakdown. If you need to get a gun in the front door, breakdown is the business.

Good point. I tend to favour integral recoil (e.g. the Alpha and the Praetor) enough that I'll usually pay the mod slots for an after-market suppressor, but getting a built-in one is certainly worth considering, especially when it comes in an SMG that's only Restricted.

Manual breakdown isn't something that I usually look to as a standard option, but it is very handy for special purpose weapons. A Barret Model 121 in a backpack has lots of potential for mirth and mayhem.

[suoq]

Slowly going nuts. Where are the dual clips? All I can find is the one that's part of the HK PSG Enforcer. Could have sworn it was a gun mod, but I can't find it.

Offtopic. The Morrissey Élan is annoying me. It's not forbidden but it's ammo is. Grrrrr...

Edit: Thanks Tymeaus Jalynsfein. I'm less crazy now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Slowly going nuts. Where are the dual clips? All I can find is the one that's part of the HK PSG Enforcer. Could have sworn it was a gun mod, but I can't find it.

Page 147-148 of Arsenal. Called Additional Clip... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

I know shotguns don't get much love in SR4, but for the discerning Longarms user with a decent face to get them gear, the Auto-Assault 16(arsenal28) is rather excellent with the addition of armor piercing flechettes(war 156).

the AA-16 also has the distinction of being the only shotty to come with a gasvent standard, mostly because the rules for gasvents changed between 4th and anniversary. A simple auto-adjusting weight gives you the 4 extra RC you need for long bursting.

I might recommend an additional clip for the other mod, so you can swap to long-ranged slug ammo, and a smartlink accessory.

9P ap-1 is really, really excellent at close ranges. And thats before you factor in burst fire and choke settings. With AP flechettes, Medium Spread (DV-2, AP+2 compared to regular, so 7P ap+1), starts to look a bit better. With a short wide burst, you can slap a -4 defense penalty on someone for only 3 shots, and be about as effective as a regular shotgun, and even hit two targets at once.(due to choke settings).

[Dakka Dakka]

I know shotguns don't get much love in SR4, but for the discerning Longarms user with a decent face to get them gear, the Auto-Assault 16(arsenal28) is rather excellent with the addition of armor piercing flechettes(war 156).

True.

the AA-16 also has the distinction of being the only shotty to come with a gasvent standard, mostly because the rules for gasvents changed between 4th and anniversary.

What are you talking about I'm not aware of any rule change.

A simple auto-adjusting weight gives you the 4 extra RC you need for long bursting.

That is a very creative interpretation of the rules. The adjusting weight provides either 1 RC for the first shot or 2 RC for the second shot, or 2 RC for FA mode. Not 1+2. Don't forget to double the uncompensated recoil.

[Mäx]

Offtopic. The Morrissey Élan is annoying me. It's not forbidden but it's ammo is. Grrrrr...

Only if you load it with one of the forbidden ammo types, my Sasha for example has a pair loaded with S&S(in hidden gun arm slides) so both ammo and guns are only restricted.
Of cource this raises an interesting question, do many of GM:s have the cops check the content of characters guns magazines after the SIN check gomes back saying they have a permit for carrying the gun.

[CanRay]

Depends on the cops, depends on the situation.

If said officer is looking for *ANY* reason to bust the 'Runners, they might.

Of course, if they fail to find anything, there's always dropping a Streetline Special with a history they took off some punk a week ago, and hey, murder charge! Good bust for Officer Crooked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Udoshi]

That is a very creative interpretation of the rules. The adjusting weight provides either 1 RC for the first shot or 2 RC for the second shot, or 2 RC for FA mode. Not 1+2. Don't forget to double the uncompensated recoil.

You're misreading it. The auto-weight provides several effects.
It provides 1 point of RC for the first shot of a phase, and 2 for the second. (this effectively negates the 'first bullet is free' rule).
Weapons in FA Mode - that is, not Semi Automatic, not Burst Fire - the actual MODE you're in, which you can change around as a free action with your smartlink - get 2 RC.
You always get the benefit of the first rule, but the second doesn't apply if you're in SA or BF mode, only FA.

If you check the Full Auto rules on page 154, you'll notice that weapons in FA mode can fire short bursts (the actual text says to look at the above section, which is Burst Fire Mode).

So yeah. If you have a weapon that both FA and BF(like most SMGs), there's basically no reason to keep it set at anything but FA, because you can fire any sort of burst you want without wasting simple or free actions to change the settings.

Regarding the shotgun/gasvent comment: My phrasing was kind of off. The AA-16 stands out because it has a gasvents due to manufacturer-fu, when shotguns aren't normally allowed to take gasvents.(i ended up checking 4th, anniversary, arsenal, arsenal second printing. Shotties aren't on the list on any of them, if you're thinking of checking). This rule has recieved criticism on dumpshock in the past, because real world shotguns can and do have gasvents - i believe they may be called shotgun brakes.

Thats what i was trying to say, but kinda failed it because I was in a hurry to get to work. Hope that clears things up.

[suoq]

my Sasha for example has a pair loaded with S&S(in hidden gun arm slides) so both ammo and guns are only restricted.

But (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it's now detectable with a MAD scanner, which gets rid of one of the Morrissey Élan's big advantages.

[suoq]

You're misreading it. The auto-weight provides several effects.
It provides 1 point of RC for the first shot of a phase, and 2 for the second. (this effectively negates the 'first bullet is free' rule).
Weapons in FA Mode - that is, not Semi Automatic, not Burst Fire - the actual MODE you're in, which you can change around as a free action with your smartlink - get 2 RC.
You always get the benefit of the first rule, but the second doesn't apply if you're in SA or BF mode, only FA.

An auto-adjusting weight moves a heavier weight to the end of the barrel as the weapon fires, providing 1 point of recoil compensation for the first shot of an Action Phase, and 2 points of recoil compensation for the second shot. A weapon firing on FA mode receives 2 points of recoil compensation.

What I see is "A weapon firing on FA mode receives 2 points of recoil compensation.". What you're describing sounds like "A weapon firing on FA mode receives an additional 2 points of recoil compensation." As I read it, it comes across as a set of "or"s, not "and"s.

[Udoshi]

I think the general idea is 'if you're firing more bullets, the smartweight is more effective because its a steady, not stuttered stream of fire'.

The two rulings aren't mutually incompatable. One does not preclude the other. They're all seperate, discrete sentences, and there's no AND/OR/Exception text.

Why, exactly, wouldn't a full burst get an RC of 3 from the weight? Its the first shot of the phase, and its FA. That circumstance satisfies all of the rules presented.

If you're going to whine about balance, you need to consider the opportunity cost of what you're using. 4 of 6 modslots for 4 RC is actauly fairly balanced. You can get 1RC/slot for a variety of other sources(some stuff, like the sling, doesn't cost any slots at all), and there's specifically a list of which stuff doesn't work with what. The autoweight is hella good, but it also doesn't stack with the other Big Ticket recoil reducers (gyromount, tripods) because it basically is that item, just worse because its small and portable.

[Dakka Dakka]

You're misreading it. The auto-weight provides several effects.
It provides 1 point of RC for the first shot of a phase, and 2 for the second. (this effectively negates the 'first bullet is free' rule).
Weapons in FA Mode - that is, not Semi Automatic, not Burst Fire - the actual MODE you're in, which you can change around as a free action with your smartlink - get 2 RC.
You always get the benefit of the first rule, but the second doesn't apply if you're in SA or BF mode, only FA.

Well the thing is in BF or FA you don't fire shots, you fire bursts, short long or full, so the RC from the first and second shot cannot apply.

I don't whine about balance, I even always thought that the auto-adjusting weight was pretty ineffective, but I just don't see it as giving up to 4 RC with how the rule is written.

If you check the Full Auto rules on page 154, you'll notice that weapons in FA mode can fire short bursts (the actual text says to look at the above section, which is Burst Fire Mode).

I know and I don't dispute that, I even wrote that in other threads before.

So yeah. If you have a weapon that both FA and BF(like most SMGs), there's basically no reason to keep it set at anything but FA, because you can fire any sort of burst you want without wasting simple or free actions to change the settings.

Except of course for called shots by RAW. Which can be used on BF short bursts but not on FA short bursts. Strangely whether the burst is wide or narrow has no bearing on whether you can call a shot or not.

[CanRay]

19th Century: "One good shot is better than six bad ones."

20th Century: "Three good shots is better than thirty bad ones."

21st Century: "Empty the belt." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I need to find that chart showing average amount of rounds expended per kill in wars over the decades.




-k

[CanRay]

Single-shot meant a heavy impetus to "One shot, one kill".

Repeater weapons took a bit away from that.

Semi-Automatic, moreso.

Full Auto in every soldier's hands... Oh man, did the brass ever start to fly!

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's pretty clear: 2 RC for any burst (short, long, full), 1/2 for SA. It's written badly, yes; what else is new? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If it just said flat 2 RC, it'd be basically the same, right? I'm not sure how '1 on the first shot, 2 the second' is a meaningful mechanic in the first place.

[Dakka Dakka]

If it just said flat 2 RC, it'd be basically the same, right? I'm not sure how '1 on the first shot, 2 the second' is a meaningful mechanic in the first place.

Just as meaningful as any other recoil compensator. They all give 1-x RC on the first shot, which is absolutely unnecessary since the first shot does not incur a penalty for recoil.

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly. Except this one (for some reason) says so.

[CanRay]

Bah, RC isn't everything. I mean, is your Assault Rifle have all the features of the Annihilator 2000?

[Udoshi]

If it just said flat 2 RC, it'd be basically the same, right? I'm not sure how '1 on the first shot, 2 the second' is a meaningful mechanic in the first place.

This would be the 'first bullet is free' mechanic i mentioned.

The second burst in a phase always has 1 more RC. Second short is -3, second long is -6 instead of -5. Full bursts don't have a second burst penalty because its not possible to fire more than one.

.... seriously, you guys don't know this by now?

THAT rule is why the auto-weight is worded as it is, because its supposed to specifically negate that penalty. With a weight, The second burst is just as accurate as the first one.

[Mäx]

If your firing burst fire, then there is no first or second shot, only first and second burst.
So no you don't get both of those bonuses at the same time.

[Falconer]

Recoil and (recoil comp) is always cumulative across the entire IP by the rules. If you had 2 SMG's w/ no RC and fired a short burst from each in each hand... the uncompensated recoil from the first gun, would still carry over to the second gun. But this is one of the common mistakes new players and people who don't read the rules closely make, and apply RC separately in full to each short burst.


All it's saying is if I have an automatic... and I'm firing 3 round bursts bursts it's less effective on the first short burst (long bursts need FA). Autoadjusting weight + stock for example.

Recoil is equal to number of bullets fire so far that pass -1. (do the math on the charts...this perfectly describes how the charts are done).

First 3rd burst... 3 bullets need 2 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(1) == 2
Second 3rd burst, 6 bullets need 5 points of recoil comp... Stock(1) + weight(2) == 3... so you still have a -2 penalty.

[Yerameyahu]

Sorry Udoshi, I don't understand your 'first is free' point. Everyone knows the first bullet doesn't count, but I don't know why you keep mentioning it. Are you saying that the the AAW *does* apply to multiple bursts, despite it saying 'shot'? Are you further saying that the writers were just trying to make both bursts similarly bad (despite Falconer's example)?

If so, it still doesn't really make sense over a nice clean '2 RC all the time', which was my question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[whatevs]

In the end I went with the AK-98 (old faithful). I know I could have maxed stats a little better with the ares alpha, but I use sr4a and the picture for the Alpha just looks soooo stupid. I also stayed away from smg's and machine pistols (for now) because this selection really doesn't have any concealability requirements. And as it turns out, there isn't RAW about bigger weapons in small places and my GM doesn't plan to be that detail driven.

AK-98 (RC5)

Mods:
Additional Clip, Foregrip, Gas Vent 3, Smartgun System

My biggest problem with mods was that I didn't read the smartgun/tacnet descriptions thoroughly. They did a lot of the things I was using other slots for. Additional clip, Gas3 and smartgun were all easy choices. I didn't originally add foregrip because I figured the underbarrel grenade launcher on the AK98 wouldn't allow it. In the end, I couldn't find RAW for it. If anyone has RAW for this, please holla' with a book/page ref.

Accessories:
No Slot: Airburst Link, Shock Pad, Sling
Under Slot: <Left Empty on purpose, seemed like it would overlap with foregrip/unbarrel grenade launcher>
Barrel Slot: Sound Suppressor (when equipped)
Top Slot: Flashlight: Low-Light

I was always going to take the Airburst Link and the sling. Having a Sound Supressor around is always a good idea. And I took the shock pad just for the recoil comp. The flashlight is kind of a guilty pleasure. Really like the idea of having it for total darkness scenarios. I'll even discuss converting it to have a strobe option with my GM.

Thanks to everyone for all the awesome suggestions. They were all either right on the money or pointed me in a direction to choose what I needed. Much appreciated.