[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Wait, your evidence that the writers intended to allow HV-creep is a rule clearly (if unnecessarily) forbidding minigun-creep? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It seems obvious to err on the side of 'stop being a munchkin, HV is SMG/AR, and minigun is MG-only'.

[Daishi]

Miniguns are actually "GE Vindicator LMG only" as it currently stands. So that specific rule on miniguns comes out of nowhere and addresses nothing. It seems to me that a reasonable assumption is that such a rule is sloppy and/or vestigial and best ignored. I'm arguing that the very similarly placed and phrased restriction on HV weapons should be treated the same way. As sloppy and/or vestigial and best ignored. The fact these are the only rules that address weapon construction (rather than modification) further increases my impression that they are the vestigial detritus of weapon construction rules that didn't make the cut and should be disregarded until construction rules should appear.

[Yerameyahu]

I just think it's interesting that both the rules you say to ignore are rules *limiting* these options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not like they don't make sense, or match the models given in the weapons lists. To conclude the opposite, you have to ignore the models, ignore tendency toward limitation, and ignore the logic of 'no pistol minguns'/'no HV pistols'. No, it's not impossible, but it's not easy either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Daishi]

I think it's interesting that you're trying to defend a rule that cannot even be applied! Forget a pistol minigun, you can't even get an MMG minigun. There are no weapon construction rules at all, and there is not even a minigun modification. There is nothing for the minigun limitation to possibly limit! So now we have a precedent for obviously irrelevant rules limiting "construction."

Furthermore, apart from the Vindicator LMG, the only reference to miniguns comes from the GE Vigilant and Vanquisher Autocannons descriptions which both say "Use the rules for miniguns." Shall we assume that includes the restriction to only light, medium and heavy machine guns, thus preventing the autocannons from existing? Of course not. The external reference must imply only the rules for firing rates. So now we have a precedent for applying only the rules regarding firing rates when such a side panel is externally referenced.

The only side panel quite like the minigun panel is the high velocity one. So when the High Velocity modification is mentioned, I'm inclined to treat the high velocity panel the same way I had to treat the minigun panel and only use the firing rate rules when externally referenced, ignoring the restrictions on "construction."

Furthermore, the Modification rules do specify restrictions on weapons that can be made high velocity ("Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only"), but conspicuously make no mention of assault rifles or SMGs. Only listing a partial limitation in the modification description and outsourcing the rest of the limitations to the referenced rules would be unique among modification descriptions. Ignoring "construction" rules and only using firing rate rules is not unique.

[sabs]

The best Assault Rifle in the game is:
Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon 10P -5 SS
Firing Selection Change: FA (large mod 4 slots)
Gas Vent 3 (2 mod slots)

On a Smart Firing Platform (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think it's interesting that you're trying to defend a rule that cannot even be applied! Forget a pistol minigun, you can't even get an MMG minigun. There are no weapon construction rules at all, and there is not even a minigun modification. There is nothing for the minigun limitation to possibly limit! So now we have a precedent for obviously irrelevant rules limiting "construction."

Furthermore, apart from the Vindicator LMG, the only reference to miniguns comes from the GE Vigilant and Vanquisher Autocannons descriptions which both say "Use the rules for miniguns." Shall we assume that includes the restriction to only light, medium and heavy machine guns, thus preventing the autocannons from existing? Of course not. The external reference must imply only the rules for firing rates. So now we have a precedent for applying only the rules regarding firing rates when such a side panel is externally referenced.

But you can...
You know what a Minigun is (You have an example of one built upon a LMG Frame, and they direct that you can do the same with heavier frames)...
A MMG Minigun owuld be built on a MMG Frame (Thus all the rules are the same for the LMG Version, but damage is better, and AP is better).
Same goes for HMG style Miniguns. Simple, really...

Why must everyone have everything spelled out in stone for them?

IF SO... Here you go...

Stoner-Ares "Shredder" Minigun (MMG). Damage: 6p, AP: -2, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 16F, Cost: 10,000
Stoner-Ares "Screamer" Minigun (HMG). Damage: 7p, AP: -3, Modes: FA*, RC: - Ammo: 50c or Belt, Availability: 22F, Cost: 18,000

The rules say you can have them, and so, here they are... That is not all that hard to do, and looks balanced right out of the box... If you find them to be a little off, change them a bit.

As for references to the Vanquisher and the Vigilant Autocannons... They function LIKE Miniguns... How hard is that? The work LIKE a minigun does. Simple...

[Yerameyahu]

Daishi, technically, autocannons aren't miniguns. They just shoot fast, as you say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's a straightforward case of analogy, not a precedent for bending rules. Anyway, you're still up against the same three issues: game balance, apparent intent, and model precedent.

I still don't think you can Firing Selection on it, sabs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The best Assault Rifle in the game is:
Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon 10P -5 SS
Firing Selection Change: FA (large mod 4 slots)
Gas Vent 3 (2 mod slots)

On a Smart Firing Platform (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except that it is not an Assault Rifle... And no modification (assumming it is a legal modification) you do to it will make it so. It is an Assault CANNON... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[sabs]

Bah, it fires like an assault rifle, it uses the same skill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (automatics)
It's effectively an assault rifle, but with more damage, more range, and better ap.

[Udoshi]

Furthermore, the Modification rules do specify restrictions on weapons that can be made high velocity ("Full Auto-Capable Weapons Only"), but conspicuously make no mention of assault rifles or SMGs. Only listing a partial limitation in the modification description and outsourcing the rest of the limitations to the referenced rules would be unique among modification descriptions. Ignoring "construction" rules and only using firing rate rules is not unique.

This, basically.

I really don't find it too unreasonable that some guns can be modified to fire two more bullets per unit of time than other models, if said gun is already full auto anyway.

The real world is full of such examples. Not all guns have the same RPM, even if they are considered 'automatic' weapons. Yet in shadowrun, a TMP, an MP5SD5, and an m240 machine gun, and a lego-rubberband gun all put the same amount of ammunition downrange within the shadowrun rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Bah, it fires like an assault rifle, it uses the same skill (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (automatics)
It's effectively an assault rifle, but with more damage, more range, and better ap.

Since when does an Autocannon use Automatics as a Skill?

Please see Text in the Rules...

Machine Guns and Assault Cannons
Use the Heavy Weapons skill when firing these weapons. They suffer from double Recoil modifiers (Recoil, p. 152).

See... Does not use Automatics at all...

[Yerameyahu]

You're making my point, Udoshi: SR4 rules aren't realistic. They're based on abstraction and (theoretically) balance.

[sabs]

Since when does an Autocannon use Automatics as a Skill?

Please see Text in the Rules...



See... Does not use Automatics at all...

Damn it I need to stop playing Riggers so much.
I'm so used to Gunnery, I forgot about that part.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Damn it I need to stop playing Riggers so much.
I'm so used to Gunnery, I forgot about that part.

No worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

That weapon on a smart firing platform is really frightening. A Hacker/Rigger using Gunnery and 'jumped into' the Smart Firing Platform starts being able to do full auto narrow bursts with 5 ip.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That weapon on a smart firing platform is really frightening. A Hacker/Rigger using Gunnery and 'jumped into' the Smart Firing Platform starts being able to do full auto narrow bursts with 5 ip.

Well, sort of, since you run out of ammo each IP, so you really only get 1 IP out of it. I would prefer a HMG Minigun for its belted nature... Having to reload every IP gets tedious...

[CanRay]

Actually, I just thought of something. Would a M2-HB with a shoulder brace, a pistol grip, and a new trigger system be an assault rifle for a Troll or Giant? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, I just thought of something. Would a M2-HB with a shoulder brace, a pistol grip, and a new trigger system be an assault rifle for a Troll or Giant? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As cool as that would be... No... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Daishi]

But you can...

If you want to house rule in some MMG and HMG miniguns, I'm all for it, but that hardly changes my argument. A rule that can only constrain house rules is a very bizarre rule. If, somehow, that rule was in fact intended to restrict house-ruled new miniguns, then that only shores up the argument that "construction" rules are separate entities from Modification rules.

Daishi, technically, autocannons aren't miniguns. They just shoot fast, as you say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's a straightforward case of analogy, not a precedent for bending rules. Anyway, you're still up against the same three issues: game balance, apparent intent, and model precedent.

Right. So the minigun rules can be used as only referencing the firing rates. Why can't the same be said for high velocity firing rates?

I'm not talking about bending rules, I'm saying the "construction" rules don't apply to anything and are just floating there. If the Modification rules stated "only Full Auto-Capable SMGs and Assault Rifles," then I'd just say, "Well, that's dumb," and house-rule it to apply to LMGs at a minimum, but that's not the situation here. Instead, we're talking about whether or not to bring in a fuzzy restriction through the backdoor with bad precedent. No house rules needed.

1) Game balance: How is an HV LMG more imbalanced than a minigun LMG? HV would be much more in keeping with an LMG's raison d'etre, anyways. If you hate the idea of pistol miniguns, then prohibit pistols from any house ruled minigun modification you may put forward.

2) Apparent Intent: The apparent intent is to address construction rules that don't exist. It's plainly obvious for the miniguns and somewhat obfuscated for high velocity.

3) Model Precedent: I'm unconvinced that model precedent somehow affects the HV modification (at the very least, if it did, shouldn't that modification also drop the damage code by 1 as well?). To reiterate a previous point, the autocannons establish a model precedent where only firing rates need be regarded when the side panels are referenced.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you want to house rule in some MMG and HMG miniguns, I'm all for it, but that hardly changes my argument. A rule that can only constrain house rules is a very bizarre rule. If, somehow, that rule was in fact intended to restrict house-ruled new miniguns, then that only shores up the argument that "construction" rules are separate entities from Modification rules.

Right. So the minigun rules can be used as only referencing the firing rates. Why can't the same be said for high velocity firing rates?

I'm not talking about bending rules, I'm saying the "construction" rules don't apply to anything and are just floating there. If the Modification rules stated "only Full Auto-Capable SMGs and Assault Rifles," then I'd just say, "Well, that's dumb," and house-rule it to apply to LMGs at a minimum, but that's not the situation here. Instead, we're talking about whether or not to bring in a fuzzy restriction through the backdoor with bad precedent. No house rules needed.

2) Apparent Intent: The apparent intent is to address construction rules that don't exist. It's plainly obvious for the miniguns and somewhat obfuscated for high velocity.

I will address #2... The apparent intent was to give you options, based upon what is being presented in the book, for creating something else. In the Minigun case, they give you a Minigun, based upon the LMG. Then tell you that you can use the same rules and apply them to the MMG and HMG, with the result being an MMG style Minigun, and an HMG style Minigun. As I indicatged aboveabove. Creating those 2 Miniguns is not Houseruling, it is using the example they gave (IN THE BOOK) to create such a weapon and applying it to what they meant it to be used for, in this case MMG Miniguns and HMG Miniguns.

They further expanded this with the inclusion of Autocannons. Which use those exact same rules, just on a much larger scale.

That is Completely different than what you are saying... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Daishi, the same could be said for HV firing rates… but it's not. The mod in question is explicitly High Velocity, not HV-like.

1. If you're going to house rule, all bets are already off. No point even talking about it.
2. I don't agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In addition, I think the direction matters: I'm on the side of limitation, you're on the side of not.
3. I think the mod *should* drop the damage code, personally. The autocannons are non-miniguns that happen to use the same rate. *shrug* Anyway, the fact that there exist only SMG/AR HV examples is amply clear for me on the precedent issue.

Now, it's true that I'm not really worried about this. Above, I argued for a while that HV isn't really worth it anyway (though some configurations can indeed make use of it effectively). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just don't like sneakiness with the rules.

[CanRay]

Actually, I just thought of something. Would a M2-HB with a shoulder brace, a pistol grip, and a new trigger system be an assault rifle for a Troll or Giant? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As cool as that would be... No... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pity. A troll with one of those would be one hell of a roadblock.

Hey, good name for a handle, as well!

[Yerameyahu]

He can still use it. Heavy Weapons skill isn't a disease. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

One of the Shadowtalkers I have with my work ("Tiny Trog") has it (The skill, not a M2-HB Assault Rifle), and is going to make an appearance in the next Nas story I write.

Oh, and here's an attempt at making a machine gun a proto-AR. Didn't work so well, but it was a taste of things to come. Ironically, also a design based on a John Browning invention.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Pity. A troll with one of those would be one hell of a roadblock.

Hey, good name for a handle, as well!

Not saying he can't use the weapon that way... There are rules for that in Arsenal, I think. He would just have to use the Heavy Weapons Skill is all... Hell, A Troll with a Minigun is just awesome. Bonus points for an HMG-Style Minigun... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)