[X] My Assistant

[Fatum]

You have to suspend disbelief. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, but no reason to ruin that suspension by playing dumb when planning the security systems supposedly created by some of the best tech specialists in the Sixth World, is there?

Infiltration works against *all* sensors because the book says it does. It's an abstract skill that includes all kinds of Mission Impossible stuff.

Uh, I beg your pardon, where exactly does it say that? And if it does, why are there specific bypass methods listed for most sensor types?

It's on par with dodging a grenade.

Bah, dodging a grenade is not all that unimaginable, no worse than dodging a bullet. You just get out of the blast range just before it goes boom.

How does this sound? make 1 infiltration check for the entire operation, and compare your hits to the rating of each device you come across. Or make one check per device you come across, or something of that nature. You fill in the blanks.

That's a fine abstract method, to be sure; but I feel that more detailed approach is what my players want (and what seems to be interesting to me myself).

If you are really worried about them being able to sneak past defenses that they don't know about why not just substitute the Infiltration result for the Perception result or make them roll that in addition and limit the Infiltration hits to the perception hits or something along those lines.

Uh, if you read carefully through the beginning of the discussion, you'll notice that the whole "you can't hide from what you can't see" thing started with discussing whether a mundane character can use Infiltration against Astral observers. For mundane sensors, we already roll Perception to spot them, naturally; but astral entities you can't possibly perceive if you're mundane.

However, there are rules in the Corebook for avoiding setting them off after you have stepped on them so it is conceivable that you can move in such a way that you can just walk through them if you are fast/agile enough, so even that stuff isn't unbeatable.

Right, for most stuff, at least some method to get past it is given (and none of those include rolling straight Infiltration, btw). For proximity wire, however, I can see none listed.

If you are interested in making a hard spot to get through you can Infiltrate through the generic parts of the facility and make it a challenge to get over a particularly dense sensor net, or over a set of pressure plates, or something like that and make it a particular puzzle/obstacle.

Basically, my problem is that it's ridiculously easy to make a hard (actually, almost unbeatable) spot. And if we presume the opposition is competent, they should be aware of the security designs in Core and more.
More than just that, frankly, it kinda troubles me that a single failed roll (okay, two failed rolls) may mean a whole infiltration attempt, which has taken us several RL hours already, fail instantly.

the end result is that it has to be beatable, detectable, or avoidable in some fashion or you are just dicking them over/the Johnson is dicking them over. It's not really fun at that point, but if you are going to rule a particular system unbeatable just do it so your characters can invest their time/energy elsewhere.

That's pretty much my problem right there. On one hand, the players want to penetrate ultra-secure corp compounds unseen. On the other hand, those are very hard to make both beatable and believable at the same time, as for me.

One thing a hacker can do is break in beforehand and download the buildings security plan. Similarly... they might try kidnapping a guard... interogating him then erasing his memory w/ something like laes.

Again, we're talking secure compounds here. The Fourth Edition made a big point of the hackers not being coach potatoes any more since the secure hosts are only accessible on location.
Anyway, of course, there's quite a number of ways to do legwork, no arguing that, and yeah, the infiltrator can be going into some more or less familiar ground. But still, what good is that when a single wagemage could ruin your day before you even start the show?

[Fatum]

Personally, I like the idea of Legwork and Knowledge Skills acting as a Teamwork Test (pg 65 SR4A) that can be used only for that particular mission to abstractly show its tangible benefit where just playing the role of a character isn't enough, due either to Player inability as an actor/writer or time constraints on over all play time. Yes, I am aware that is a house rule and YMMV.

This is some Mission: Impossible stuff, we need the abstraction of the dice because we the players aren't Shadowrunners, if we were we would have a lot more money and probably doing something like cliff diving with super models after a party with our favourite money launderer after a big score for entertainment if we weren't content with being a international criminal for the thrills and home life was the mask.

If the pretend security system that the characters are facing off against are really impossible aka GM fiat rather than just a threshold they could possibly have enough successes to get around unnoticed or unseen, then you really should be pretending that your Fixer sucks at his task of setting the Shadowrunners up with jobs from Mr J's that are more in line with there skill set, since apparently that Mr J is really looking for a group that doesn't give a shit if they are seen because they are ready for that with some masks, big guns, big mojo, bigger explosions, and fast get away vehicle(s) - which is fun too, it just may not be what your group of player characters is suited for if they plunked karma in the stealth group skills and expected it to be useful.

If you handle it in such an abstract way, is it really any fun for any player interested in infiltration?
Besides, when designing my encounters, I try to be realistic, as weird as that may sound for Shadowrun. So yeah, if the runners are breaking into the Stuffer Shack, no prob. If it's a zero zone they're up against, there's someone no less competent than them who designed the security system - what, should I just handwave inadequacies like the crawl spaces not being monitored? The first question I'm getting from my group then would be "what kind of zero zone is this?"

And I appreciate you did some wiring, then you are familiar with crawl spaces and maintenance access, even if that means a screw driver, a drill, and some method of making minor repairs ... just because they didn't realize they wanted a secret, hidden access panel there doesn't mean they can't have one now

You know, around these parts, wiring does not include secret crawl spaces or access panels. The wire channels between rooms are about head-sized, and mostly filled with cables at that. Air ducts running from the floor hub are about that large, as well. Most room-wide equipment is right above the hung ceiling in the room serviced, so you just remove a couple of tiles of the ceiling for repairs. Floor-wide equipment is in a separated service area, and building-wide either is as well, or is situated on a separate technical floor. Frankly, using those systems for infiltration is just a Hollywood trope, and requires pure GM fiat to work in Shadowrun (well, except for some weird adept builds).

bingo, bypassed that impossible chokepoint which now apparently includes a turret, which oddly enough works in the infiltrator's favour: just how do they get power and ammo to the turret? How big is the recess its hidden in? If not hidden, what is it anchored to? It can't shoot at what it doesn't detect with sensors, it would be rather odd if the thing was programmed to randomly shoot at the air ... and what is down range from that turret? I guess it is dystopia, a few "accidents" of a turret shooting corp sec and wage slaves is no biggie, right?

God. You can't infiltrate through a toothing! Nor really hide in a niche several times less than you, which is already occupied by a turret.

"But the character didn't see it!" Did you let them roll do legwork, knowledge skills, perception, disguise, and inflitration if detection is that vital? Did you give the character a chance to use their skills or just the player?

Yes. All useless against Astral patrols or mages hundreds of meters away being able to tell who you are, precisely.

Really, all that should be a consideration here game mechanically is how high a threshold you want and the rest is just the use of your imagination to explain it however you want that is the most fun for the session with people who are presumably friendly and civil with you.

Blah-blah-blah believability blah-blah-blah in-depth exploration of the setting. Basically, just rolling dice pools against thresholds is pretty boring.

And I am absolutely sure astral does not equal instant fail for infiltration, magic is even more abstract than pretending masters of stealth are possible.

Yet I still can't see any viable solutions to the most obvious cases of magic-based security in this thread yet.

I get it, you are wondering what your limits are within the setting and remaining true to Shadowrun, but lets be clear, the setting is all in the GM's head irregardless of what they write in the books, every game session is on some unique due to the vagaries of differences in how we all imagine things. The limits are only what you set them to be, if in your mind it is impossible, it will be - I am only trying to help open your mind up a bit to entertainment possibilities for your players sake, since they apparently have images in their minds of stealth being fun since they made their characters with those skills: meaningful, powerful, and entertaining.

Well, yeah, apparently. It's just that fulfilling their ideas becomes my work, and so far they haven't been able to throw any really bright ideas my way on how to make the high-grade infiltrations both engaging and minimally believable at the same time.

A competent hacker can loop the cameras, cause random glitches in the sensors, make sure the HVAC ducts are unlocked, and cause the most aggravating distractions imaginable (short of a running gunfight). Many of these actions can negate the need for your infiltrator to make some of those impossible rolls. Yes, the hacker runs the risk of being detected as well. Yes this is a second chance to blow the mission. However, a facility will generally not have the same care put toward all aspects of its security. A place with top-notch matrix security may have sensor blind-spots you can exploit. A place with impenetrable physical security may be far more vulnerable when softened up by a preliminary hack or two.

To deal with most any astral security setup, I recommend the Astrally-projecting Magician, with a few spirits that know the "Conceal" power. Conceal can be your very best friend, since the power explicitly works against astral detection. Anything that conceal won't help with (the aforementioned warded area, for example), the projecting mage can deal with, in one fashion or another. Have a watcher on hand to run messages back and forth between the overwatch hacker and the Astral mage.

Right. So, as said before, basically any infiltrator should come with a hacker and a mage on call. Preferably be all three, but it's really out there.

Next, there is the problem of Astral security. It's generally invisible, and it can walk through walls. Unless the area you're infiltrating is warded. Then Astral security has to play by the same rules they set for the intruders... unless the mage who set up the wards is also the same guy who happens to be on shift at the time, so he can let himself and his spirits through the wards. How many hours a day does he work?

Uh, far as I remember, you can let others pass through your wards. Otherwise contract warding wouldn't work.

So, yeah. I can see how you have a valid point about security systems being hard to beat as just a guy making an infiltration roll. The solo sneak-thief or ninja isn't an amazingly viable archetype unless you want to spend a LOT of points on being amazing at stealth/hacking/con...AND being at least an adept with Astral Perception. Honestly, even a full team will have a lot of trouble staying completely undetected with a top-tier zero zone security system... which is why you only give that kind of run to a top-notch team.

You know, it seems to be the problem with either our gaming style or the system itself. Lots of interesting archetypes, ones players love, tend to be either too weak or not really needed in a shadowrunner team.
Prime examples I've seen done numerous times being pilots and snipers, of course; but the more we talk about it, the more it seems the stealth-based infiltrators are in the list, as well.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno what you're asking for, here. Magic is magic. It's unfair. Astral sentries can be (sometimes) beaten by Infiltration (Astral Visibility mods, cover, etc.), but it's true that the Detect spells are pretty badass. There are many cases in SR where you need combined arms, or at least having it makes the plans easier. Magic against magic, matrix against matrix, etc. Infiltration has plenty of excellent uses, but if the question you're asking is 'how does one mundane beat expert-class magic-and-technical security?'… why would you ask that question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You need a little of everything, or you need to take easier runs.

[Fatum]

Haha, ok, thinking of it like that...

[Dakka Dakka]

+1 to Yerameyahu's post.
Asymmetric warfare could also work. Use the Face/Street Samurai to get the expert mage to not show up at work or forget reporting the intruder aftzer the hacker found out who he is.

Also the Spirit Power Concealment works wonders against Astral Observers as of SR4A.

And otherwise just let the mundanes roll infiltration against Astral observers as well. With the skill they should at least also know where an observer should/could be and try to avoid his potential LOS.

Cover works even better against astral observers than physical ones. There are no transparent objects on the astral plane.

[sabs]

This is how I see it.

Hacker and Face get some kind of job working in secure facility (in some low grade job). This gets them both inside the building. Face does his face thing, schmoozing, sleazing, and getting access to id cards, finding out which secretary has her boss's secureID tokens in her commlink.

Hacker does slow probing from inside, gets a lay out of the matrix topology. Finds said secretary's commlink and pwns it. Hacker also uses his time to figure out where cameras are, and how to access them. Maybe he's got 10 or so tapper-bugs and 3 dronekiller drones that he brought in with him in his lunchbox. They're set to tap into the fibre, and the dronekillers are there to protect them from the site's drone killers.

Face finds out daily work procedures, security procedures, etc, etc. They get their streetsam hired in the security department, or the facilities department. The mage does some astral recon, and figured out where the watchers and the wards are.

This is coordinated with the maps they aquire and build.

This is all legwork. They don't try to get the final piece. This allows them to form a plan FOR that final piece. On the night of the infiltration:
1) they know the guard routines, and possibly the guards, heck their streetsam might be one of the guards on duty.
2) they control the cameras, and biomonitor feeds
3) they have done matrix simulations of the entire run.
4) The hacker erases their employee records, or activates a virus that starts corrupting their employee records (or all employee records).

This works if your shadowrun team is.. normal. If your shadowrun team is an astral hazing minotaur, a banshee, and a naga with medusa hair.. you have issues.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Used this very technique (above) on Mitsuhama in our Hong Kong game. Worked wonders. Of course, it will nto always work. but the time I did go that route, whoo boy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Actually, that plan has half a dozen of holes. It might work; but again I reiterate - it's not really what my players want from the game, far as I can tell.

[Blog]

Yeah, but no reason to ruin that suspension by playing dumb when planning the security systems supposedly created by some of the best tech specialists in the Sixth World, is there?

Lets not forget they are also often the lowest bidder!



Something to note for setup of a security system is to keep in mind the cost to run that security system. Grunt guards are fairly cheap compared to a mage, let alone a mage expected to have spirits up or sustain a spell for their entire shift. For smaller facilities they likely have a "call center" setup where there is a pool of resources spread among the assets which may include a mage to cover each shift. If the mundane guards suspect something magical the call goes in and the astral mage arrives very quickly. Its more cost effective then having a mage present at all times. Larger corps have more funds to throw around so they may.

Security by its nature is "just enough" to make it difficult (or the illusion of difficult) to deter the desire to break in. For everything else there is insurance!

Now that is not saying there are facilities that dont have the security on red alert 24/7, but most places are in idle mode unless something raises suspicious for then to "look into it"

[DireRadiant]

End of the day you are rolling dice. It's a simple test or an opposed test. You then decide if they succeed or fail and describe the results accordingly. There's a whole world of rich imagination you can use to describe the results for your game. I usually give players bonus to the roll for cool ideas regardless of the actual security, and negative modifiers for not so good ideas.

Or you can spend hours and days arguing about all the real and imagined scenarios you can think of and then decide whether they succeed or fail based on your personal understanding of the combined experience and skilled arguments you and your players bring to the table. Loudest or most articulate wins. Your choice.

[Ascalaphus]

As a GM, of course you can come up with a facility that is basically impenetrable. Whenever the players come up with some strategy you say "the security director is a genius, and he thought of that, and he did something against it" using his unlimited budget for protecting every asset of the entire company.

But isn't that overdoing it just a bit?

NPCs aren't infallible, and PCs know a lot more about their job than the player playing the PC, most of the time. That doesn't mean you can just waltz in there, flashing your dice pool and expecting things to work out Because You Have The Stat, but why is the GM declaring that the group's mission is impossible?

Rather a lot is being made of the magician's supposed ability to spot intruders. Spirits are said to basically not understand the physical world. Sure, you can show the Watcher spirit of the day all the employees it's not supposed to raise an alarm about, but the poor thing has only Logic 1, so it's going to make a LOT of mistakes. The Detect Life spell only detects the location of people, but nothing about who those people are.

So a magician could be guarding the entry to the Inner Sanctum, and know that he should be called before people with clearance try to enter. This is an important security procedure, and with legwork, the PCs could find out about it. So they spoof a message to the mage about a surprise visit from Upper Management.

So there's a camera aimed at the door. And someone is monitoring that camera 24/7. The PCs could find out through legwork, and perhaps hack that camera, use Edit to show the absent-minded researcher coming in at night to finish a project.

Simply put, all these things can be defeated. With forewarning and legwork, it's likely that it'll be done well. But if the PCs go in without knowing how the security system is set up, then of course it'll be hard.

Opening a door marked Off Limits without knowing what's behind it should be scary. Better send a drone in first. Or use a Clairvoyance spell. Or peek in astrally. Or sneak a glassfiber cable under the door. Or... etc etc.

Basically, a few simple Infiltration checks cover going from Challenge Point to Challenge Point, and those Challenge Points require either a clever strategy, good preparation, or amazingly good dice rolls. (Amazingly good dice rolls basically indicate that the character found a solution the player didn't think of.)

[Dakka Dakka]

The Detect Life spell only detects the location of people, but nothing about who those people are.

The BBB tells us otherwise:

Detect Life Example: The troll is your contact, Moira, and she’s wounded and being chased by three ork gangers!

[Ascalaphus]

Ah, right. I just looked at the spell description, which only states "number and location".

Note, however, that Detect Life is an Active sense, so the mage has to concentrate on it to use it. Keeping up that kid of active watch - all lifeforms in an area - is pretty heavy duty. Also, it's a resisted test, so you'll get some false positives and some false negatives, it's not all that reliable.

[Dakka Dakka]

Ah, right. I just looked at the spell description, which only states "number and location".

And now we can argue ad nauseam which passage is wrong. Well done, game designers.

Note, however, that Detect Life is an Active sense, so the mage has to concentrate on it to use it. Keeping up that kid of active watch - all lifeforms in an area - is pretty heavy duty. Also, it's a resisted test, so you'll get some false positives and some false negatives, it's not all that reliable.

all true. I'm just thinking, instead of using useless watchers, using Spirits of Man with the Detect Life spell would be a good idea. The spirit can then even verify the positives himself.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

All true. I'm just thinking, instead of using useless watchers, using Spirits of Man with the Detect Life spell would be a good idea. The spirit can then even verify the positives himself.

Assuming, of course, you can both Summon a Spirit of Man, and that you have the spell yourself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

The BBB tells us otherwise:

I think the stupidity of detect life has been well established.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think the stupidity of detect life has been well established.

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Fatum]

End of the day you are rolling dice. It's a simple test or an opposed test. You then decide if they succeed or fail and describe the results accordingly. There's a whole world of rich imagination you can use to describe the results for your game. I usually give players bonus to the roll for cool ideas regardless of the actual security, and negative modifiers for not so good ideas.

Or you can spend hours and days arguing about all the real and imagined scenarios you can think of and then decide whether they succeed or fail based on your personal understanding of the combined experience and skilled arguments you and your players bring to the table. Loudest or most articulate wins. Your choice.

The problem here is that if we use the rules, when we roll the dice, the chance that the players fail is kinda too high for my liking, if they're going against competent opposition.

As a GM, of course you can come up with a facility that is basically impenetrable. Whenever the players come up with some strategy you say "the security director is a genius, and he thought of that, and he did something against it" using his unlimited budget for protecting every asset of the entire company.

But isn't that overdoing it just a bit?

You don't even have to use feedback here. Sit down for an evening, open the core book - blam you have a setup which is incredibly hard to penetrate for an infiltrator, almost to the point of impossibility.

NPCs aren't infallible, and PCs know a lot more about their job than the player playing the PC, most of the time. That doesn't mean you can just waltz in there, flashing your dice pool and expecting things to work out Because You Have The Stat, but why is the GM declaring that the group's mission is impossible?

As you see, as a GM I'm doing my best not to. There's this pesky thing called "rules" though...

Sure, you can show the Watcher spirit of the day all the employees it's not supposed to raise an alarm about, but the poor thing has only Logic 1, so it's going to make a LOT of mistakes.

Watchers are said to be about as smart as dogs. And it's trivial to teach those who's friend and who's foe.
Besides, do your PCs with Logic 1 have trouble recognizing friendlies, too? :3
After all, you can always use actual spirits for patrols.

Simply put, all these things can be defeated. With forewarning and legwork, it's likely that it'll be done well. But if the PCs go in without knowing how the security system is set up, then of course it'll be hard.

The problem is - for a decent secure facility, it's almost impossible to do quality legwork, as well, at least not without leaving a trace. A hacker needs to get in to hack into the offline system (so he's useless at least until the outer perimeter is breached). A mage could go on an astral recon trip, but that just means that he's asking to be spotted by patrolling spirits and/or resident wagemages (although, ok, this one is more likely to succeed, even if he'd have trouble discerning the details of the physical setup).

Note, however, that Detect Life is an Active sense, so the mage has to concentrate on it to use it. Keeping up that kid of active watch - all lifeforms in an area - is pretty heavy duty. Also, it's a resisted test, so you'll get some false positives and some false negatives, it's not all that reliable.

Right, you'll have to be sustaining it, and even get a negative dice penalty to anything else you do. Crippling, isn't it.
False positives? How comes?
False negatives - sure, if your infiltrator is brining a mage, or has his Willpower incredibly high. Or just happens to roll well. So basically, I wouldn't count on that.


Actually, the whole thread so far burns down to almost-impossibility of penetrating a secure facility for a mundane infiltrator, and high complexity of doing so even for a prepared group of specialists (which involves babysitting the support cast, which, as far as I can tell, is not what the ninja players want). It's not like it's universally bad, just means that the players won't be doing precisely what they want to be doing because of the limitations of the setting.

[longbowrocks]

And now we can argue ad nauseam which passage is wrong. Well done, game designers.

Not like that's ever been a valid result before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Fyndhal]

I'm playing an Infiltration based character -- a cat burglar.

She has:
18d for Infiltration
11d for Knowledge of Security Procedures
12d for Knowledge of Security Design
13d for Knowledge of Architecture
11d for Knowledge of Physics

I figure she knows more about how to bypass security than everyone in this forum, combined, by a good margin. Combined with good legwork, she should be capable of breaking into anything short of an A level security by herself, and is qualified to take on even AA's with a team.

The BEST I can do, as the player, is to come up with a general idea of how to bypass the security. The character is much more aware of the limitations and capabilities of the various tools she possesses than I am, and has a much more vested interest in doing things correctly -- if she screws up, the best she can hope for is jail.

Just like shooting a gun, throwing a punch or summoning a spirit involves levels of abstraction, so does infiltration. As the GM, your job is to make things fun and challenging; saying ANYTHING is impossible is not fun or challenging. Sure, the player may have a threshold of 30, but it's not impossible.

[longbowrocks]

Yet I still can't see any viable solutions to the most obvious cases of magic-based security in this thread yet.

The mages will never learn until you sprint through their compound at 300 meters per turn with your astral hazing taking out watchers and other lesser spirits, then send one of the security mages home with three kinds of awakened diseases, and temporarily install wired reflexes 3 on all the other awakened folks in the area. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Or just use redundant manufacturing on one of your drones and do some nasty things. Maybe he'll try his favorite direct combat spells. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[longbowrocks]

She has:
18d for Infiltration

Rock on!

[Dakka Dakka]

Watchers are said to be about as smart as dogs. And it's trivial to teach those who's friend and who's foe.
Besides, do your PCs with Logic 1 have trouble recognizing friendlies, too? :3

Yet dogs have INT3 not 1. Telling friend from Foe IMHO is more a thing of INT than LOG.

[kzt]

I figure she knows more about how to bypass security than everyone in this forum, combined, by a good margin. Combined with good legwork, she should be capable of breaking into anything short of an A level security by herself, and is qualified to take on even AA's with a team.

Though she is completely incapable of noticing the spirit that is doing his astral mime act of "I'm so very sneaky" behind her while he waits for an opportune moment for an Accident to happen to her. So I'd guess magical security is uncommon?

[Fyndhal]

Though she is completely incapable of noticing the spirit that is doing his astral mime act of "I'm so very sneaky" behind her while he waits for an opportune moment for an Accident to happen to her. So I'd guess magical security is uncommon?

See "Legwork" -- there are ways to prepare for mages, even if it's just getting the guy drunk as hell the night before so he fails to summon a spirit the night of a run. There are drugs you can buy that can let even mundanes see in the astral. Binding spirits also gets to be pretty expensive; hiring one of the gangs that has a few mages to do the equivalent of a magical DDOS attack by sending spirits to mess with the targets spirits can work.

So, no while there isn't a lot she can do directly to astral entities, she isn't helpless.

EDIT: Oh, yes...per the fluff, magical security should be pretty uncommon, considering the ratio of magically active to mundane population. In practice, though, I've never played in an SR game where that was the case -- anything the players were likely to go against had magical security woven into the defense.