Secondary Weapon Skill, this would be easier if I just optimized Options

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
That's quite simple to answer.

The skill table is not "off". You can work quite fine with it. The problem is, that sticking to the skill table is not the Minmaxing route to go.
To increase a skill from 4 to 5 cost only 10 Karma. From 5 to 6 cost only 12 Karma.
6 in his main weapon skill is profitable for any sam. No matter if it would fit the description.

If higher skill would be more expensive you would not see them as often. For example if a attributes/skills would cost ("new value")²/3 you would not aim for 5 or 6.
Because no matter how often you tend to shoot things an additional dice is not worth 6*6/3*2=24 Karma
Espacially if a skill from 0 to 3 would only cost 3+3+6= 12 Karma
With ³ it would be even more obvious.
But with this linear cost progression it takes a while untill it won't pay off anymore.

If you could increase your skills without limites, when would you stop?
7 for 14 Karma.
8 for 16 Karma.
9 for 18 Karma.
10 for 20 Karma.
11 for 22 Karma.
12 for 24 Karma.
etc.
My guess is it would be around 9 to 10 becaue the additional dice is not really making an impact anymore. And for this amount of Karma you could get a lot of other stuff. Same thing with Magic as it is.
Nobody thinks raising Magic to 10 or 11 is worth it in any way. (Expect for maybe free spirits)

[Yerameyahu]

Aha, got you. You've just admitted that the skill table assumes matching attributes, which means just double everything on the list. I win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The whole point is that the fluff ratings are DP-based, not skill based. That's always been the point.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
As a matter of fact not.
The skill table messures the skills, not the attribute.
If you have the skill of Michael Jorden you do not have (from the game point of view) to have his strenght or endurance.
But naturally the two things should match.
So having a close combat skill of 7 and an agility of 1 is rule wise possible but it is not realistic.
Same thing goes for logic 1 and first aid 6.

As a matter of fact you coud introduce a rule like:
A skill may be as high as linked attribute(possibly minus 1).
(A lot of RPGs have rules like that to prevent such dump things like a hacker with Logic 1 but hacking 6)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Notice that I never said the Table was off Irion.
I fully support the Table. Completely.

As for when would you stop with no limits, I would think that 3rd Edition answered that for you. When you decided that you had reached a point of diminishing returns. I have seen many characters in 3rd Edition in the high teens (saw one with a 19, had one with an 18) for Skill levels, with continued advcancement planned, even then. I am not a fan of unlimited advancement. I squash it in its infancy, when I can. You want to be best in the world with a Skill, well, you know where you stand in Shadowrun. Skill 7. If you want to be the absolute BEST in the WORLD, well, your Stats better be maxed out as well. Does not hurt to have boosts to that dice pool, and offsets for those things that have offsets. Again, in Shadowrun, you know where that line is. In Shadowrun, 'ware ius for those who do not want to put in the time to get there naturally, or for those characters who want that edge against their contemporaries.

In my opinion. You can be at the top of your game and still not go crazy with DP's above 20. Hell, a maxed out Human can have a DP of 16 in anything and be the absolute best in the world. I am just not sure why everyone else thinks that that is just not good enough. Especially when your absolute best Opposition (Threat Rating 6, Tir Operative with DP's in the high Teens) isn't rocking DP's above 20 intrinsically. Everyone else claims it is because the characters are not designed optimally. I say that they are realistic.

Even you fall into the trap of bigger and better, as you indicated above. "The problem is, that sticking to the skill table is not the Minmaxing route to go." My question is why you want to go that route in the first place? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

*shrug*

[Hida Tsuzua]

Unless you're playing an adept or have a crazy STR score for some reason, I'll stay away from throwing weapons. Yeah you can smuggle your throwing knife and do Str/2+1 which will be like 3P (STR<=4). Or you could smuggle in a SnS holdout and do 6S. In the vast majority of cases (shooting a living thing), stun will be better and you get to do more of it.

I would second using the shortbarreled T-250 shotgun for moderate level conceal situations (such as working around the street or meeting people you may end up shooting) especially if you have high longarms skill rating. Something like this might be up your alley in terms of mods:

[ Spoiler ]

Short-Barrel T-250 Shotgun: 475Y
Total Cost: 2070Y
5P AP: -1 SA RC: 1(2) Ammo: 5(m) Conceal: -3(-4)
Features: Folding Stock (Built-In) Smartlink (Top) 400Y Personalized Grip (1) 100Y Chameleon Coating (2) 1000Y Barrel Reduction (1) 20Y Concealable Holster 75Y
You can 2 slots free to play around with, but this is a good restricted legality base. I would add an integral silencer, but that makes it forbidden. Other options are range-finders or skinlink. I added Personalized Grip so you don't have to worry about the folding stock ever. The magazine is small for my tastes since it'll empty itself in 2 and a half passes.

If that doesn't meet your needs, I would go with pistols. The Fubuki is an amazing light pistol and with SnS can meet requirements A and B.

As for C, the best thing is your own magical power (sorry!) or some sort of heavy weapon. Errata'd guass rifles are dangerously close to being able to piece mainline battle tanks without many successes. Airbursting anti-tank missiles 6 are worthwhile if they can hit. If the GM follows War!'s grenade autofire rules (bless his soul), then a FA grenade launcher will vaporize anything. To be fair, your APDS Barrett 121 with a called shot will hurt most things with a 13P -8 AP though so I'm not sure how much you have to worry about the heavy end. Unless the GM is really out to get you and you need more, there are bigger problems in general than your DV.

[Yerameyahu]

Irion, that's the point. The table is worthless, because it talks about skill, but it means DP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And Attrib+Skill isn't even throwing in DP mods, which are major. You can't ignore these aspects; the table does, which is why it's crap.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Irion, that's the point. The table is worthless, because it talks about skill, but it means DP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And Attrib+Skill isn't even throwing in DP mods, which are major. You can't ignore these aspects; the table does, which is why it's crap.

And yet there are those who disagree with that sentiment. Go Figure... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

There's you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Hehe.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There's you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Hehe.

Heh... And several Others... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Summerstorm]

Yeah, hi guys. I am on Tymeaus side *g*.

People go overboard with skills/attributes in this system, because it is so easy (Even more so in standard BP creation), not because it is logical. In SR3 you could at least tell somebody with skill 8 or something: Yeah, you are pretty amazing... but SOMEWHERE out there is someone with 9. If that dude (somehow) raised his skill to 9... yeah: SOMEWHERE out there somebody has 10.... hey, maybe even 11.

The system took care of itself with openness and by not depending ONLY on massive amounts of dice. In SR4 you can pretty much do away your problems by just dropping a crapload of dice on it. That is one of the points making this all so weird. You don't NEED to stop and aim before you shoot anymore (to get your TN down to 7 or something)... you just have to be the WORLDS best shooter - like weirdly a crapton of people are in this CITY.

[Ryu]

There's you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Hehe.

I consider it nice that the skill levels get a meaning on their own besides being a source of dice. Should you adhere to the table, your choice of skill levels determines much about your character. As for effectiveness, I prefer to raise linked attributes even under SR4A.

IMO the mechanically optimal skill level is usually 1 (+spec), 3-4 for stuff you use often. Ten karma for one more die is often not worth it. Agility 9 (easy after chargen), Skill 4, Spec, Smartlink is 17 dice, more than enough for most needs. If in doubt use a larger weapon.

[Yerameyahu]

I liked the SR3 skill system, because it had that built-in Attribute/Skill limiter (skills above Attrib cost more). The SR4 system is different, but I'm not saying worse. It's largely self-balancing (in theory), because it's big DPs against big DPs. What I *am* saying is that the skill/fluff table doesn't fit the game, and there's no reason for it to exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) When every player is better than 'world class', we know the table's wrong. When the difference between 'good' and 'god' is a measly +2 DP (sorry, 'skill'), we know the table's wrong.

That's it exactly, Ryu: you can perform at the top end with skills *not* in the top end. Outcome is effectiveness is 'skill'; in-game, there's (all but) zero difference between Agi 9 Skill 1 and Agi 1 Skill 9. People don't watch you shoot and say, 'wow, good thing your Agility is so high that it compensates for your low Skill!' They say, 'holy shit, you're good at shooting!'

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu

Irion, that's the point. The table is worthless, because it talks about skill, but it means DP.

No, it does not.
That would be very silly. Your dicepool depends on how the lights are, if you are tired etc.
And additional it says skills. So thats quite strait forwards anyhow.
Your argument strikes me as silly as well. Yes you can have a high skill and a low dicepool but this ain't realistic in any sense. So yes, the rules allow for silly builds and those silly builds do not seem to fit to the table. But hell, a guy with physics 7 and logic 1 does not fit at all.
You can't suggest that fluff applys to number abomination beyond any fluff.

When every player is better than 'world class', we know the table's wrong.

Because "every" player is hitting at a skill level of 6.
Because it is a no brainer in BP and even with Karma the benefit outwights the investment. And so the GMs raise the thread level and so every player has to act like that.
There is no way the mage is able to counterspell with only 3 dices if every enemy spellcaster throws his powerballs with at least spellcasting 5.

(Which is not a requirement at all, since you could play the game with skills around 1 to 4 the same way.)

If you want to play by the table you have to stick with minimal karma rewards. (And now adepts and mages won't be the better ones)
So yes, down there the balance works quite good.
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Notice that I never said the Table was off Irion.
I fully support the Table. Completely.

Yes, I know. I was just unable to comunicate it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
My statement was only meant to clarify MY position not to act as a counter to yours. I just tried to answer your question.

My question is why you want to go that route in the first place?

I just tried to answer the question you posed.
Why are most people wanting to minmax in the first place?
Because it is so easy and not doing it would seem more like a choice or a failing than doing it.
If you build your first Sam you get your Firearm of choice 6 and maybe your athletic skill group 4, becaue you know you are though.

[Yerameyahu]

Your skill depends on those things just as much, Irion, because DP is the only thing you roll. There is (almost) no skill effect in the game. Your argument is silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) If the game was 'realistic' (sez you), then the chargen would enforce it. And I see nothing unrealistic about a skilled person born with low Agility, for example. However, that person would be less 'good at shooting' than someone with superlative Agility and less skill; by any reasonable perspective, the latter would be considered 'more skilled', more effective, more accomplished, more likely to succeed, by the fluff.

Outcome is all that matters, and that's not a crunch perspective. Your Lone Star supervisor doesn't care if you have a higher rating Firearms than Jenkins; he cares that Jenkins consistently outshoots you (genetics is unfair, I guess). Jenkins is the one rated 'professional', or 'expert', or whatever.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu

And I see nothing unrealistic about a skilled person born with low Agility

Give me one example of that!
(Well, in real life there is no agility attribute and some stuff the agility governs has actually nothing to do with shooting. So in real life a guy with the "gun related part" would be someone with shaking hands)

However, that person would be less 'good at shooting' than someone with superlative Agility and less skill

If you take an EX-sharpshooter who has parkinson disease now, you would have an example of high skill and low attribute.

But still you can't write rules for any known problem.
So it is better to give players liberty, even if some abuse it. (Whats the damage in that anyway?)
So yes to be really as good you need skill + attribute. But still the skill determins how well you know your way around this kind of stuff. (If you can't bring your skill to use thats something different)

But your conclusion I broke the system therefor the System is wrong strikes me as a bit strange.
(Yes you are right, that the system will break with higher Karma rewards. You can't build a SAM with 750+700 Karma while sticking to the tables. (Refering to attributes and skills)
So if you insist that combining strenght/Body/Agility 6 is wrong and two skill groups at 6 are wrong, then you can't build any high Karma character.

The problem here is only, that the skill table is right. Because the highest skill is 7.
So the best of the best will have a skill of 7.

[Yerameyahu]

You're kind of all over the place, so forgive my fragmented comments:

Inasmuch as the game can have 'real life' examples, low Agi/high Firearms is just someone who's practiced shooting more; yes, possibly an ex-great shooter (aging, disease, whatever), or just someone with less natural 'talent'. This really isn't the point, because you brought up 'realistic'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's no game effect of 'knowing your way around this stuff'. If anything, Agility is much more able to 'use something different' than any skill, especially because there's no 'default to related skill' in SR4.

I didn't say anything about you or anyone 'breaking' anything, AFAIK. I have no idea what the bit about karma is about.

The best possible shooter will have skill 7, yes. That doesn't mean, as the table implies, that having skill 7 means you're the best possible shooter. *That* is the point. This is basic logic, and you know it. DP comparison is what matters, because that's the only way performance is determined, and performance is the only way that 'proficiency' is determined.

So, at best, we can charitably say that the skill examples are people who *tend* to have about that level of skill (again, *not* that having that level of skill means that you're comparable to the example). If we actually wanted to do a real comparison, it would take into account the full DP (primarily Attrib+Skill, inc. augmentations).

[Irion]

The best possible shooter will have skill 7, yes. That doesn't mean, as the table implies, that having skill 7 means you're the best possible shooter.

Thats exactly what it means.
Yes, you are able to build some examples which would contradict it, but so what?
The table is a guide line and not the holy truth.

[KCKitsune]

Grenades are awesome (and I love the pistol one), but they have two main drawbacks:

1) Being able to affect an area, and potentially more than one target, is great, but it also means that they are kind of indiscriminate in their damage. Not the go-to tool for a jumble of combatants, a hostage situation, or when civilians are in the line of fire.

2) Grenades are like assault rifles - you use one, and you attract lots and lots of the wrong kind of attention. Like, a SWAT team, instead of a squad car.

Depends on the grenade round that you used. If you use a gas grenade, you will have a LOT less causalities. I mean a narcojet gas grenade or a nausea gas grenade would deal with a large group of people, but not get the SWAT teams rolling out.

[Mäx]

Thats exactly what it means.

No it really doesn't.
If they had just made it 3,6,9,12,15,18,21 and but the word DP instead of Skill there, it would be much more in line with the actual game system.
Yes you could still build characters that are better then best, but at least the table would give skill levels the same way being ably to do stuff is handelt in game.

Rigth know the table is pretty much a joke, oh skill 7 is best of the world, thats intresting my face has no social skills at all and still throws 20+ dice for all social tests good luck beating that mister skill 7 charisma 1 negotiator.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But your conclusion I broke the system therefor the System is wrong strikes me as a bit strange.
(Yes you are right, that the system will break with higher Karma rewards. You can't build a SAM with 750+700 Karma while sticking to the tables. (Refering to attributes and skills)
So if you insist that combining strenght/Body/Agility 6 is wrong and two skill groups at 6 are wrong, then you can't build any high Karma character.

The problem here is only, that the skill table is right. Because the highest skill is 7.
So the best of the best will have a skill of 7.

Actually, you can build a Street Sam with 750 Karma (or 400 BP) plus a ton of Karma and still adhere to the table. I do it all the time. You just adhere to the levels of the descriptors, and then build out all of your rational and relevant support skills as well. I have said this before. How many times do you see a character with ungodly high levels in a skill, and yet the support skills that logically go along with it is nonexistant. Sheets rarely, if ever, actually match background. Why? Because it is just easier to min-max the basic idea with little to no regard to the actual concept of what is actually being created.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No it really doesn't.
If they had just made it 3,6,9,12,15,18,21 and but the word DP instead of Skill there, it would be much more in line with the actual game system.
Yes you could still build characters that are better then best, but at least the table would give skill levels the same way being ably to do stuff is handelt in game.

Rigth know the table is pretty much a joke, oh skill 7 is best of the world, thats intresting my face has no social skills at all and still throws 20+ dice for all social tests good luck beating that mister skill 7 charisma 1 negotiator.

But that is an Edge case Max, and I am sure that you know it... At my table, you would not have those 20 dice to roll, because it would not be allowed, because your sheet would likely not fit the concept that you proposed to the GM. There is such a thing as excessive Min-Maxing, and that is a prime example of it right there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Irion, I think you just agreed with me. Except for the obviously false statement that skill 7 means you're the best, you said that 'the table is just a guideline'. This is what I said in the last post: people matching the example *tend* to have skills at that levels. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They just also tend to have DPs roughly 2-3 times that, though.

It's not 'some examples'. It's not 'edge cases'. It's the fact that in almost all cases, the skill fluff doesn't match. You *have* to assume similar Attribs, which means you're already using a DP table, not a skill table. Look at the examples: Athletics 5, pro (NFL) athlete. An NFL player will definitely have Bod/Str/Agi way above 3-4 (whatever's relevant), which means that Athletics 5 doesn't equal NFL player. DP 10+ does.

[Mäx]

At my table, you would not have those 20 dice to roll, because it would not be allowed, because your sheet would likely not fit the concept that you proposed to the GM. There is such a thing as excessive Min-Maxing, and that is a prime example of it right there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's really not Min-Maxing, i'm pretty sure that build would get the 20+ dices cheaper by actually taking atleas 4 in the social skills, but that wouldn't fit the concept of the naturally(well almost naturally) charismatic face.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's really not Min-Maxing, i'm pretty sure that build would get the 20+ dices cheaper by actually taking atleas 4 in the social skills, but that wouldn't fit the concept of the naturally(well almost naturally) charismatic face.

He is not naturally charismatic if he has absolutely no skill... he is relying upon other external things to boost him there. Whether it be 'ware or magic or other equipment. He is not NATURALLY Charismatic at that point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mäx]

He is not naturally charismatic if he has absolutely no skill... he is relying upon other external things to boost him there. Whether it be 'ware or magic or other equipment. He is not NATURALLY Charismatic at that point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Naturally charismatic is exactly what he is, some one with high skills isn't naturally charismatic, he's a skillfull speaker, there's a big difference.